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Not having any experience with orthodox Judaism, it's hard to put those passages into context.

It's rather hard to decide what to make of that page. It seems to have an agenda, though I'm not sure I understand what it is.



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Because the author writes that her synagogue is a member of the Conservative movement, which is not the same as the Orthodox movement? It's not so much "pretty clear" as it is "wrong."

This is Haretz; the point probably is to target the Old Testament.

Lol the Jewish Theological Seminary is definitely not Orthodox. I'm surprised they even know enough halacha to know how to explain it; maybe it's gotten less orthodox over time.

> This article is pretty ok, but its format is probably confusing for a gentile audience.

As a gentile who knew about daf yomi already, I immediately got the reference. But no doubt I am far from your average gentile in that respect


I have a feeling Orthodox Jews don't feel the same way.

>The specific instruction is to "do no work on Shabbat". The interpretation is human.

This is a good point, but I think orthodox judaism wouldn't say that the interpretation is human. In orthodox judaism, the interpretation of biblical commandments is usually assumed to be oral tradition from god. There are also rabbinic decrees, but these are generally treated with something approximating the force of a biblical command because there's also a biblical command to follow the rulings of the rabbis.

>I think(and of course Rabbis disagree) that interpreting "flipping the light switch" as work is NOT what God meant, it feels almost like an insult to intelligence to interpret it this way. There is an intention behind it, and I think the intention is more important than trying to be as literal as physically possible.

This is speaking like you're not obligated to fulfill the commandments. That's axiom one. Once we have that down, the obvious next question is "what are the commandments." Asking "what is the spirit of the commandments and when can I violate them" is wrong because the answer in orthodox judaism is that you can never violate them. You can make an orthodox argument that electricity should be allowed, the prohibition is definitely rather unbased in actual law imo. But that wouldn't be because it's ok in the spirit of the law, it would be because the law permits it.

>So yes, I think I stand by what I said initially - all of this feels like a game, with some really crazy rules. Play according to the rules and you get eternal salvation. Don't question the rules.

I think I can agree with this. Most of the rules do in fact feel like dumb contrived bullshit. If you actually look at the categories for work on the sabbath it's very clearly stuff that a worker in the BCEs would think is work; lighting fires, doing planting and harvesting, carrying stuff, weaving, making bread, it's all very strange and disjointed from modern reality. And this is supposedly divine decree too, so it's not even the work of ancient rabbis, supposedly.


This is how I read it as well. If the rest of Judaism is like this I might consider converting to it.

As someone who grew up Hasidic (and spoke only Yiddish until 17) I am also not sure what the article is attempting to do here.

Is she trying to bring attention to the sexist attitudes of the Hasidic community? They wanted something, she wanted something else, they paid as per the new conditions. End of story.


They're going to have to use Rabbis to decipher this stuff in the future.

> s quite interesting the lengths people go to follow the letter but not the spirit of things.

Perhaps it appears that way to you, but what do you know about the 'spirit' of Jewish law compared to generations of life-long practitioners and rabbis?


Yeah I wouldn't take someone picking out these verses of the Talmud as a serious criticism of Judaism, but this is someone who is jewish using that text to justify his actions.

Whenever I see something about the Talmud in gentile-dominated spaces I tense up a bit. I'm not orthodox anymore, but I was orthodox for the first 20-odd years of my life so I'm in the unique position of being around a lot of gentiles but knowing a lot about Judaism and Jewish law. This article is pretty ok, but its format is probably confusing for a gentile audience. For reference:

a large number of Jews do "daf yomi" (translated: a page a day), where they learn a page a day of talmud, everyone being on the same cycle and thus learning the same page in paralel. Many publications, talmudology.com included, put out daily (or sometimes weekly) pieces on the daily page of talmud, often aimed at working and/or unlearned people who don't have the time or ability to learn through a page of talmud (and draw an idea or two out of it) every day. That's why the article starts with "On tomorrow’s page of Talmud". The page of talmud that everyone's going to read tomorrow on the 30th is the 54th page of tractate Yevamot.


You might want to read some select passages from the Talmud.

> That’s the problem with referring to the Talmud in secular non-Jewish circles. People have misunderstood it for millennia with extremely negative repercussions.

Like any other religious text, I'd question the idea it has a single meaning waiting to be understood. Just as Christians differ immensely in how to interpret the New Testament, I'd expect Jews to differ immensely in how to interpret the Mishnah and Gemara (and other associated literature) – of course, there is a certain core of majority-to-consensus opinion, but beyond that there is a lot of variation (you could say the same, roughly, about Christianity–although Christianity's much greater size and fissiparity makes this rather more marked in the Christian case.) Whichever religion we are talking about, I don't think we can necessarily say that in an objective sense, one interpretation is going to be right and the others wrong. Nobody can be sure what exactly was in the heads of the original authors, and with works of collective authorship, different authors may have understood the same passage in different ways–which understanding then is the "original" one?

I think antisemites generally jump to the worst possible readings of the Talmud, and are completely disinterested in any other readings, or understanding the history of the different ways in which it has been read–because they aren't approaching the text with an honest interest in it, simply using it as a means to express their animus towards the community which produced it. On the other hand, sometimes I get the impression that some Jewish defenders of the Talmud are too quick to rule out those kinds of problematic readings. Consider the late Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, Ovadia Yosef, widely considered to be one of the greatest Torah scholars of his generation–yet also infamous for remarks such as "Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel"–while I have never read any of his Talmudic scholarship (has any of it even been translated to English?), if that is his attitude, I would not be surprised if he interpreted sources such as the Talmud in support of that perspective–and yet, those would be the kinds of interpretations of the Talmud which would make its antisemitic critics rub their hands with glee. Of course, views like Ovadia Yosef's are those of a small fringe of hardliners – Judaism has its "fundamentalists" just as Christianity and Islam and Hinduism and others have – and it is unfair to misrepresent the views of such an ultra-conservative minority as the mainstream reading or the only possible reading. On the other hand, it is also a mistake to refuse to acknowledge that the text can actually be read in such a way, and a (rather small, but arguably growing) minority of Jews even do.

Also, when antisemites cite the Talmud as justification for persecution, is that a cause or is it just a pretext? Could it be, that they would have engaged in the same quantum of persecution even if they'd never interpreted the Talmud as saying things they found objectionable? If there is a parallel universe out there in which most Jews were Karaites rather than Rabbanites, and as such most Jews would reject the Talmud, and (if it existed at all) it would be an obscure text of a tiny Jewish sect – it seems entirely possible that in such a universe, antisemites might have persecuted Jews just as much as in this one. They would have just found some other excuses for doing it.


and their explanation of what it is, for those who haven't spent time in the world of jewish texts.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vREoqWlYLC68jScm...


> I think(and of course Rabbis disagree) that interpreting "flipping the light switch" as work is NOT what God meant

It's amazing that people can just come out and say "I know what the God meant, while people who lived this tradition for thousands of years, carried it over several continents and kept it alive through wars, plagues, genocides, raise and ruin of empires - they all don't know what they're talking about". It certainly is gutsy.

The thing is, there's only two ways to know things, in general. One is experience it yourself - in this case, you go to God, ask Him (or Her, or Them, whatever works for you) what is the meaning of that, get an answer and live the rest of your life according to it (or ignore it if you like, your choice, free will and stuff). Another is trust the relevant authorities - and in this case, those are the rabbis. If you are interested in Judaic tradition, then there's no Judaic tradition outside the rabbis. Of course, inside there's a lot of variety, but if you discard the rabbis, then you've got no Judaism. Whatever is left is not based on Judaic tradition anymore, and then one would have to ask - what exactly is it based on? Why would you believe anything in those texts at all or put any importance into it? Of course, you don't have to - but then the question of what's the right thing to do on Shabbat is moot - you do whatever you like (well, excluding the obvious things like murdering people etc.) and it's fine.


https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-l-e...

There is debate in the religious community about this eruv and others in Manhattan.


While Orthodox Judaism (and be careful, there are distinct flavours of what 'Orthodox' means and multiple authorities) holds the Torah to be the revealed truth of God, the concept of an "obvious, literal interpretation" of anything is anathema to Judaism. You're supposed to struggle with the texts, peeling back layers of meaning, context and application, finding patterns, etc. The truth doesn't come from reading a verse, but through a lifetime of focussed study. It is also part of the tradition that the revealed truth is understood in the context of the world as it is experienced---G-d doesn't lie. If your observations contradict your understanding of the Torah, your understanding is flawed.

> Why do you think so? I have to admit that I was just guessing, but it seemed logical > (most notably the fact that only kosher food is available). What alternatives does an orthodox Jew really have?

Orthodox Jews are about 20 percent of the Israeli population, and have a lot of different job options -- teachers, professors, shop owners, lawyers, bankers, programmers, managers, insurance salesmen, etc. The sandwich shop from which I bought lunch today is Orthodox, as is the receptionist at the first client I met with.

Virtually every public venue in Israel has kosher food. Every single one of my clients has a kosher cafeteria for their employees. Those that don't have cafeterias are located a short walk from kosher restaurants and supermarkets.

Most Israelis aren't religiously observant, but most do (according to surveys I read years ago) want some degree of kosher food in their lives. Whether they approve of the current mix of religion and state is another question altogether. The haredim (sometimes known as "ultra-Orthodox") are a different population altogether; while they're religiously observant, the fact that many (or most) of their men don't work or serve in the army has been a major source of political tension for decades.

Given that about 20 percent of the population is religiously observant, that El Al pilots all come from the air force, and that religious Jews are a growing proportion of soldiers in elite units, I'm going to guess that we'll see more and more religiously observant El Al pilots in the future. But I've flown on El Al a lot, and I can't remember ever seeing a male flight attendant (which El Al has on every single flight) or pilot saying "goodbye" to us while wearing a kippa (i.e., head covering).

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