>I am a professional computer programmer. If I can't figure out how to reset a password on Skype, then what are the chances that a less technical person can do it?
The days of 'being good with computers' are gone. UIs change so rapidly that core skills are useless in comparison to daily use. You could be a linux guru with decades of database dev skills, but any 14yo youtuber will probably navigate a website better. I'm a lawyer. I know lots about tax law, more than most accountants. That doesn't help me navigate the tax office's website. My accountant is the expert there. (Actually, even she has someone who does the web stuff.)
>I often think about technical literacy. Programmers are in this bubble where we think "oh, I'll just use grep and regex" and we can solve all sorts of problems. But 99% of people don't even know what those things are, much less have the foundation necessary to use these tools effectively. This sucks, because technical literacy does not seem to be growing at a rate that matches our societal dependence on these systems.
Even working in IT this is an issue. For something I used to do we needed to take a bunch of input and turn it into a basic csv before it could be used. For example, feeding a bunch of servers names into some kind of script. People kept coming to me to help them put this together, because I was decent with a text editor. Eventually I decided to make a little website that let people dump in all their garbage data; it would clean it up and format it in various formats, depending on what they needed it for. I figured one or two people on the team would get some use out of it. How wrong I was. It was being used hundreds of times per month. I was attending a demo for some other team a couple years later and someone on the demo used it to get his input in order before using whatever he was trying to demo. Some of these seemingly basic things can be huge for enabling people to do their job effectively.
I always thought I shouldn't have gone into IT, but something else... anything else... and simply used computer skills as a super power. The productivity someone with some basic computer skills can have, compared to the others who don't, is crazy.
That's what worries me. There was a time when I could write low level C and even some assembly. Similarly there was a time when I could explain the ins and outs of IP packets and routing. However, none of that is what the market wanted and I don't remember any of that anymore.
Heck, with most of my work involving running around trying to hold understaffed systems together and juggle the unreasonable demands of management; I don't even have the programming/web development skills that I used to.
> You think that 10 and 20 year olds growing up with computers and even smartphones available for all of their life, know less of computers than people in the past?
Yes. Aptitude with screwing around with a GUI isn't very relevant.
40 years ago, computers were at best used by clerk type people for specific tasks at a terminal. Accountants were using tabulation machines, written materials were on IBM selectrics.
The people engaged in professional work with computers were mostly programmers or others doing "data processes" or working with business analyst types to model business process around workloads that could live with the available computing resources.
>There's a ton of Stupid Computer Shit we all know, mostly from messing around on our own time
This, I think, is the core issue. Like most of us here, I started playing with computers as a young child, from a Timex Sinclair 1000 as a pre-teen to a Commodore 128 as a young teen, then an Amiga and beyond. It wasn't work, it was fun, a hobby. And more importantly, by the time I hit college, I had literally thousands of hours of practice just being immersed in how computers work.
I started tutoring other students in CS for some beer money, and it was a real shock at how awful otherwise very intelligent people were at what I considered utterly trivial questions. But they weren't trivial. They were only simple if you already had a complex, detailed and well-worn model of how computers work running in your head. Without that, even simple computer tasks may as well be written in cuneiform for all the good it does the genuinely new student.
I'm not even sure it is possible to take a young adult who is truly computer illiterate and have them succeed in a technical major. At least not in a standard 4 years. There is simply too much foundational knowledge you need to have before you can even begin the real work of learning what to do.
> Now, the barrier to entry is a lot lower, but there aren't many of the very young learning their way around command lines, etc.
I'm a fairly young person. What I've seen over the past few years is technology is finally useful and accessible to everyone. Forcing people to use the command line isn't a useful skill for 99.5% of people anymore, it's just senseless gatekeeping to make it a computer requirement. I got into computers by ripping into Windows XP internals and learning how it worked when I was a kid, no command line needed.
There will always be people who are more curious about how things work. Have faith that kids are smart enough to use the internet to learn for themselves.
Just because technology is easier does not mean it's harder to learn how to be "technically competent". Remember that the definition of technically competent moves with the times, too.
> How do you think people learnt to code before the internet? I borrowed large textbooks on Basic/VB, C++, and Turbo Pascal from friends and libraries. And this wasn’t a long time ago. I did this as recently as 2005.
I'm not denying that, I'm just sating progress was way slower - especially for newcomers before the internet. Imagine trying to solve problems without Google or Stackoverflow when you're a 15 old kid trying to learn programming. You're stuck on some shitty installation of Linux or some missing package and have no idea why the compiler gives this error message. How do you even get Linux? Have no idea how they did stuff back then but it was for sure harder to just to get something up and running.
So easy to give up.
Programming in that era used to be something 1 in maybe 50 children tried. It was no way near as accessible as it is today.
The flip side of that is that since it's now easier for everyone to learn new skills and solve problems, the requirements and expectations from workers pretty much went up proportionally.
> Do you think that all people are born with the innate ability to master computers, programming, and other technical tasks?
No. That is besides the point.
There is a big difference in knowing how to repair a computer, how to program a computer and how to do technical tasks with a computer.
Repairing a computer normally involves identifying the part that is faulty and replacing it. On a desktop PC that is relatively because the components go together like Lego pieces tbh. My father managed to replace the memory in his ageing desktop computer by just looking for what the parts were in the machine and just replacing them. He barely understands how to use a keyboard (he highlights each letter with the mouse and presses delete)
I am good at programming computers but I don't understand how Excel works past very basics. My friend who can't "program" with something like a text editor or IDE, she will quite happily do all sorts of complicated tasks with sheets and cells in it all day.
> Just as not all people are born with innate ability to write a good novel, paint a masterpiece, write a symphony, or lead a nation, I'd say no.
I never claimed the opposite.
However there are plenty of people while they can't write a symphony can start up their own metal tribute band and make quite a lot of money.
You are painting it as a binary of people that can't do something and people that have mastered something. There are plenty room inbetween.
This place is called hackernews and I have explain this point sooo verbosely. This must be satire.
> But all people are born with the ability to live their own life and learn how best to do it in the direction that seems natural for themselves.
Some aren't actually. I have a friend that looks after seriously mentally ill people. They must be cared for almost 24/7. There is one lad he told me about that will masturbate in public because he has no concept of it being socially unacceptable due to having somethign similar to asbergers IIRC.
> I'm curious - how do you reconcile thinking they're very intelligent with thinking that they're utterly unable to grasp the basic concepts of computing?
Understanding computer systems requires both cultural and institutional knowledge. Not all intelligent people possess this knowledge. My grandpa is a great example. He’s a retired English professor and has deep knowledge of literature and the structure of English language. He’s still incredibly sharp but he cant use a computer to same his damn life.
> as an industry we'd rather tell ourselves that it's all so impossibly hard and beyond the grasp of the common person rather than admit that we just suck at explaining things and educating people outside our bubbles.
Using computers is very hard. I think you are underestimating the amount of time you and others have spent learning “basic” computer skills (email, word processing, web browsing, etc) that many haven’t had the time or opportunity build. I started learning how to use a computer when I was a little kid, maybe 5. over the course of my childhood I built up those skills to the point where they endemic and felt simple, even natural. These things take time and purpose and many very smart people do not get the opportunity or reason to build these skills
> I have a very similar anecdote. I had a long conversation with a friend who is a high school science teacher. She told me that computer literacy has plummeted in the last ten years.
I suspect it is the same progression as any other new technology that undergoes mainstreaming. Take automobiles for example. In the early days if you owned a car you either made yourself something of an expert (and if you were an early buyer you were probably kind of an enthusiast already) or you hired one. Today outside of enthusiast circles they are just an appliance: you get in, turn it on, and go do whatever it is you need to do.
>That's left me wondering: will there be a point at which I struggle, after having spent decades writing code that powers the web?
I'd say it's not that tech will become too difficult to use, but the constant and frequent changes will start to annoy you to a point where you just don't invest as much time into learning how the new stuff works. YMMV, but I am less than half your dad's age and I'm already starting to feel it.
> It's possible we achieved such a technological peak that future generations won't be able to understand the basics
I don't think it's this, and I don't think programming is so hard (it's the business logic that is hard when you have to specify it exactingly, to reference the thread.) I think that the manufacturers of the various computers we use make it unbelievably difficult and scary to touch anything, and cast quite a bit of suspicion on you for even wanting to change anything.
> Sometimes I feel like they were just more impressive programmers back then.
I feel that way often. I definitely stand on the shoulders of giants to do my silly web app job.
But then again no one has ever hired me to do anything wild like fitting a game into 8mb on a hardware cartridge. I've never been in a group of other smart people trying to accomplish it, or mentored towards accomplishing something like that. Maybe I could if I had to.
I have the education for it, in theory.
I often wonder what line of work I would be in if I hadn't grown up with computers though. Would I have still tried to go into it as a profession because I'm good at math? Or would I be off working as an electrician or something else.
> "Why does it have to be so complicated? I just want to install a program"
> "Why would you do that in the command line? It's way easier using $Program"
A concerning observation that’s slowly dawning on me is that more and more programmers don’t know how computers work. They can write code, build software, and do lots of useful things. But they have no idea how computers work. They’re more akin to lusers as we used to call them than they are to hackers of old.
Fantastic at their specialty and the tools they use. But move a button to an unfamiliar place or throw them into a new (but fundamentally same) environment and they’re lost.
The realization came a few weeks ago when someone shared The Missing Semester of Comp Sci on HN. It’s full of basic things you’d expect any programmer to somehow magically know … but they don’t learn this anymore. https://missing.csail.mit.edu/
Seeing that link shared connected the dots in my mind. I’ve been wondering for months ”Why does everyone at work have so many random local environment issues all the time?” … it’s been working fine for me for years. Same code and hardware. ¯\_(?)_/¯
Maybe I’m just getting old and grumpy. I’m sure folks older than me thought “wow kids these days know nothing” when we came on the scene …
I'm 49. I got my first computer at 10. I've been dealing with family, friends, coworkers, and church congregants ever since about how to use computers and software and web sites. What I've just come to realize is how much effort normal users put into getting their stuff to work, because, when it finally comes time for them to ask for help, they are resistant to changing anything about their behavior. That tells me that they have SIGNIFICANT investment into getting to the place they already are.
Perfect, ready example: It's telling that my wife and kids struggle to find files they've saved on a MacBook, which should be the KING of usability. I mean, this is a problem we should have solved 20 years ago, right? Yet, any time I suggest ways to search or sort in Spotlight or Finder, I get pushback about not having time to learn how to do it better.
I think about all the stupid crap I put up with from computers and web sites on a daily basis -- as a full-time programmer/sysadmin/devop -- and I despair. I just had to register an account to download Docker to my work computer. And wait for the confirmation email. And fish it out of my spam folder. And fish the saved password out of Firefox's password manager, which had saved it under a different domain. You and I, as people who read this site, deal with this crap all. day. long. I'm totally with Jaron: How do normal people deal with this world WE have created?
> The real question is why do we let people to abuse technology instead of using it well.
I am (still!) amazed by the gap between how I see a computer and how most non-geeks around me do. To them, it's like a set of different, often frustrating tools rather than, well, an amazing piece of technology that can be prodded to do whatever you want (to the point where an iPad with few to no apps can provide them with all they need).
To me, there's a joy to finding just the right framework, app, or library that can do what I need done. To the point where I might end up enjoying the process a bit too much and get nothing done. To them, it's all about getting stuff done as soon as possible, with whatever they're familiar with. And since they find computers often quite frustrating, they will abuse the hell out of the little bits they know.
And so, in the same way that we would use a lighter to open a bottle if there isn't an opener nearby, they 'abuse' technology by using Excel for everything, or storing their notes in an open notepad window without saving. And as long as that works most of the time, they feel absolutely no incentive to figure out a better way.
Until, of course, it all goes wrong. Then they call us to fix it :-).
> Something never quite sat right with me about this argument, and your comment finally made me understand what it is: the understanding you gain from tinkering is priceless, and it's exactly the experience that you use to help everyone around you: it turns you into an expert.
I have plenty of other things I’d rather tinker with and become an expert on, though. My computer is a tool to let me work with those things. It’s not fun when I have to debug and fix the tool for hours or days before I can even start working on the things I want to work on.
>That's a ridiculous notion anyway. If you put in time and effort, you can learn pretty much anything, and computers and programming are no different, no matter the age. And if you do not put in time and effort, you always remain ignorant. It really is that simple.
I tend to agree, But younger people have the 'advantage' of being submerged with computers from a very young age. Children tend to pick up things quicker and easier compared to adults. (this is especially true with language, learning a second language as a child is far easier then doing the same as an adult).
Also, i think its unfair to judge people on their knowledge about computing when they are not in the computing field.
most people don't know how to gearbox in their car works, yet they are still able to use a car just fine.
The days of 'being good with computers' are gone. UIs change so rapidly that core skills are useless in comparison to daily use. You could be a linux guru with decades of database dev skills, but any 14yo youtuber will probably navigate a website better. I'm a lawyer. I know lots about tax law, more than most accountants. That doesn't help me navigate the tax office's website. My accountant is the expert there. (Actually, even she has someone who does the web stuff.)
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