I disagree with vivekd on many points, but I don't think that schools offer many more unstructured opportunities for socialization than their examples. They get a few minutes in the hallway, and then maybe lunch, and then extracurricular activities - which he's already suggesting anyway.
>it is possible to have plenty of "socialization" with other kids.
I agree. Public school is not a great place for socialization, and it's not hard to create something better. Nothing socializes kids like sitting next to each other motionless in silence for several hours lol
>> "So where is the evidence that socialization in a school environment is necessary"
Just anecdotal but might help. I had a younger family member who had to miss a few weeks of school and stay home. After a few days he was itching to get back for the sole reason of social interaction. If you don't go to school you see your friends for maybe 1 hour in the evening. If you go you see them for 20mins on the bus to school, in-between classes, 45 mins of recess per day, and the 20 min bus ride home. Not to mention the interaction during group activities or lulls in classes. If everyone was homeschooled there would need to be a substitute for this and suggestions I've seen like "all parents should take their kids to the park for an hour" don' suffice. I think the length of the interaction isn't important, the fact that it happens throughout the day is. Seeing someone for 5 mins an hour every hour is different than seeing them for 1 hour, even if it works out to be less time. It's a different experience and one that's hard to replicate.
> In fact, I think the social interaction with other children of similar age is extremely important to developing social skills and friendships.
But is putting 30 kids together in a room with one adult the right way to do it?
I question the belief that school is necessary for socialization. Obviously home school for everyone isn't an option, but there are plenty of studies that show home schooled children turn out just as well off or better. So where is the evidence that socialization in a school environment is necessary or even beneficial.
> Perhaps there would be less classroom disruption if friends could have time together outside of the one class they took together knowing that would be the only time they could be together?
There is. School ends at 2:30, upon which point they can enlist in formal or informal shared after-school activities. Turning classes into a free-for-all where no one needs to afford the teacher and other students any respect for their time and attention isn't a great option.
Plus, most classes I took in high school had plenty of group projects, small discussion groups, etc. that allowed for social interaction with friends in a non-lecture context.
> We often believe the point of school is the academics, but I would argue it's the social. Studies indicate social skills are more important to future success than academics.
How much socialization do kids really get in school anyway?
They get 5 minute hallway breaks (if they are lucky) between 7 to 9 periods of classes per day. Maybe the bus ride in/out for 20-30 minutes. Lunch or recess. So how much time is that, again?
You have a point there. In regular school you are forced to be 'social' or risk punishment. I put 'social' in quotes because I think what is considered social is subjective and mostly made up. But watching how people are treating one another in this world I'm not sure if that social component is really working out good. Homeschooled kids are definitely not as slavishly as the 'socially' drilled kids from regular school.
>The social skills learned in such an artificial environment are highly unlikely to transfer to the real world.
That's an odd argument, do you think there is little socializing benefit from any kind of schooling then?
A 12 month range of age is not unusual for a circle of peers/friends throughout life, especially if you normalise for age.
A narrow age band means that children are likely to be at similar stages of emotional & mental development as their classmates, so they can learn from each other. It's important not to forget that children are children and not adults. School shouldn't necessarily directly model the rest of their lives.
> It’s not like public school inherently does better at this
I don't think this is true. Take those same kids with poor social skills and home school them instead. They almost certainly wont have any better social skills. Meanwhile plenty of kids who did learn strong social skills by being around others in school would have worse social skills if you home schooled them.
I'm not saying regular schools get a 100 out of 100 on this. I'm saying they do a significantly better job at this than homeschooling does EVEN WHEN you add in measures like sports, group activities, ect that op mentioned doing.
> Classrooms empty into lunchrooms and schoolyards, which are not segregated by year.
In my experience, in elementary school our class had assigned tables for lunch and a specific time when we had the playground and blacktop. YMMV. But at any rate a half hour in the cafeteria and a half hour in the yard aren't the best places a child could learn to interact with other children; the characteristics of these activities are constrained by the form of the institution.
> There is nothing preventing kids from developing socially if they are home schooled. They just need to get out of their house and socialise with other kids, which they will do on their own if people let them...
You can't really make global assumptions like that. I know for a fact I would have preferred to play games and code in high school rather than go out to socialize, and hanging out with friends I made at school was the majority of my socialization until I was forced to keep in touch with them in college.
Not every kid is a social butterfly waiting to be let free.
The socialization from school is 100% not artificial. I can look back at many stupid things I did in middle and high school that taught me valuable life lessions and have concretely shaped how I think about things.
> Kids rarely get much time to even talk to each other in grade school.
This is not true, at least in our school. They interacted quite a lot. It is not like they would had 7 hours straight of learning and nothing else, there was quite a lot of literally dedicated playtime where teachers done only general supervision.
>As someone else pointed out, it's not clear that school helps with [learning how to be likeable]
The rebuttal to your point is so simple and obvious it's really hard to take you seriously. Socializing is a skill that can be practiced. If you have fewer opportunities to practice, you're less likely to get better. The children that are bad at socializing despite going to public school do not show that public school doesn't teach socializing, it means they didn't learn as much from their practice. For all you know, poorly-socialized public school children would have otherwise ended up living in their parents' basements until 45 or turned into serial killers if they were homeschooled. Public schooling doesn't need to guarantee good outcomes to be the more desirable choice.
Yeah it doesn't. I still need to go to classes, do hw and what not which really cuts into my reading time.
> Not everyone is like you
Right, maybe let's setup a system that can cater to people according to their needs, how about that.
> I personally know very few people who enjoy educating themselves (let alone children and teenagers)
That's because their only experience with education is sitting in a classroom for 6 hours a day talking about dumb stuff someone once upon a time deemed to be worthwhile to be a part of education.
> They just don't scale to millions whichever way you look at it
Unless you've tried it, don't say it doesn't work.
Disagree. Year groups perpetuate immaturity. They are also very socially unnatural, a mere byproduct of going for scale in the education system. That is fine, but if we can achieve scale without year groups (which we could under your proposal), that would be better.
> that school is not always good socialization or the only way to socialize children.
Typically it is the option within reach.
We've eradicated free ranging & natural adult-free peer time. What's left are adult-built programs. They're artificial constructs and they take real time and money to be reliably available.
I had 5 kids. I spent 10x time (per child) parenting, compared to my parents. My kids had a busier life than I did but they were still shortchanged.
>Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex
Do people spouting this have any kind of realistic evidence for how schools are so terrible for socializing, instead of spouting off folksy wisdom?
The whole "socialize, more like INSTITUTIONALIZE mirite guys?" just feels so flimsy and patronizing. Some are even comparing public schools to Lord of the Flies? That's just ridiculous.
> The only reason we hesitate to take them out of school is the socialization aspect.
You really hit the nail on the head for me here. I see that kids need to work with large, consistent, groups of their peers for years to learn all of the skills needed to be socially competent (work and play). Many don’t get this and it can really show when they move into adulthood.
> Kids don't universally like anything (good or bad for them--thats kids in general)
Didn't say they did. Just said there is a reason why they universally don't like one thing - school.
> so that argument is irrelevant.
The argument isn't irrelevant because it goes against your assertion : "Humans are social creatures". Schools weren't created to be social environments for kids. They weren't created for socializing. Kids don't socialize in a group of 1000 kids. Schools, in fact, prevent socialization. Kids tend to socialize after school. Everything you've said so far is indoctrination nonsense. If you wanted kids to socialize, school is the last thing you'd build.
> Family? Mom and Dad are 2 people? Did you follow the footsteps of either?
So no siblings, uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc? Also, do you have to follow in their footsteps to get your social needs from family?
> I grew up in an area where I was the only child within 6 blocks? Am I out of luck?
I wonder what people like you did before schools were invented 150 years ago? Is there a reason why you can't go out 7 blocks?
So you only had a father and mother in your family and were bound to a rule that limited you to 6 blocks?
> Edit: I am well-versed on both the history and current status of the education system. Both my parents and my spouse are full-time teachers.
Now I understand why you think the way you do. Just because your parents are school teachers doesn't mean they or you know the history of the education system. Actually, the fact that your parents worked for the system incentivizes you to ignore the history of the modern school system. It's what happens when you rely on the system for a paycheck.
Seriously dude, what’s the difference? What do you think “socialization” means? It is about being exposed to others, interacting with them, and learning social norms. Sitting quietly at desks listening to a teacher is objectively less effective than something like swimming lessons, or really anything I mentioned in my list, and that description describes the bulk of time at school.
Everything else you described makes me wonder why you think those things are essential to the human experience. Are you regularly bullied as an adult, because if so I suggest you make some life changes. Bad teachers are different from bad managers - you can’t easily quit and go elsewhere, or complain to HR.
Also, spurned crushes exist well beyond education for many people! Not sure why you suggest education is a key component of this.
> Where’s the advantage?
I am not saying there is an advantage in these elements. I am saying socialization is not a disadvantage to homeschoolers and this is really a myth.
I disagree with vivekd on many points, but I don't think that schools offer many more unstructured opportunities for socialization than their examples. They get a few minutes in the hallway, and then maybe lunch, and then extracurricular activities - which he's already suggesting anyway.
reply