I set a high bar for my kids and I don't treat them like "little snowflakes". I interact with them on a regular basis and I set strong boundaries that come with consequences & rewards. I explain the way the world works (as best as I understand it) from a very young age.
EVERY child is unique and so there is no one way fits all to raising well-behaved and well-socialized children, so I adapt. I stay engaged with teachers at school and follow up when something goes wrong.
Teachers are often afraid to tell parents "bad things" about their child because so many parents are defensive and think their child can do no wrong. I try to recognize my children's shortcoming so that I can help then to improve.
When I first meet with a teacher I tell them this and that I truly want to hear about issues. I will tell the teacher, "In the past we have seen that X is an issue for him/her and s/he is working on improving on that area. If this or any other issues comes up let me know right away so we can correct it at home before it gets worse." I have found that this is more effective than just saying I want their feedback as teachers often think that is just lip service.
I set strict boundaries and rules and then I consistently enforce them. Often times I explain why a rule is there, but sometimes I just say, "I have my reasons." I find that in general children are more compliant with rules when they understand the reasoning, but the reasons behind some rules are too complicated for children to understand.
Apparently, these things work as my children are all high achievers and very well behaved compared to the majority of children I encounter on a daily basis. Other parents often ask me what is the trick to having such well-behaved kids.
My youngest daughter was a real handful the first couple of years in school and my wife and I had to put in a lot of work to change her behavior. Things that worked for the first two children had zero impact on her. Eventually, we figured it out. One of the most interesting things was that she had the same teacher for 1st grade and 2nd grade due to some re-org that happened at the elementary school. Out of the blue one night I received a phone call from her teacher (while she was in 2nd grade); when I answered the phone I assumed the teacher was calling to tell me there had been some sort of incident. Instead the teacher said how she just wanted to call to say what a pleasure it was having her in class and how she didn't know what we had been doing, but that it was amazing how well behaved she was.
So to sum up; if you are going to have kids then step up and be a parent.
I'd like to hear from parents who are managing well.
I have a hypothesis that in households where children's behavior is better regulated (through example, discipline, or disposition) things are going better than they would otherwise. (I have evidence from my own childhood that this would be the case), but I'd like to know, if this situation is manageable or even an improvement for your child's education, what are you doing to make it so?
I'm very explicit about telling my kid exactly that. I point out his behavior, I point out how I sometimes do almost exactly that, what's bad about it, and I remind him that just because I do something doesn't make it right.
Because I'm not setting switches on my son module, I'm trying to influence a human being toward a good direction, despite my failings.
A) I anticipated problems and taught them "wisdom" before the issue came up so they wouldn't be stumbling around doing stupid, destructive stuff.
B) I'm not a rejecting, judgmental, controlling, authoritarian kind of parent. So there isn't anything to rebel against. For example, when my oldest would say he wanted to play video games for a living when he grew up, I would say "I don't think that's a realistic career goal. But don't let my lack of vision stop you. Feel free to prove me wrong." So he never felt compelled to go make scads of money as a competitive gamer just so he could throw it in my face. He was free to have his idea of what a career looked like evolve without making it a power struggle with his mom.
My kids are very well behaved, ironically because I never required it. On the one hand, I imagine it would take many, many words to adequately explain (and maybe some day I will get back to developing the parenting site I own). On the other hand, I also feel like there really isn't anything to say. Just love and accept your kids. No big. (And work on your own crap. Ninety nine percent of the time, if kids are a-holes, they are just reflecting demons in the parental subconscious. I spent a lifetime hunting down personal demons instead of kicking the crap out of my kids for being reflections of my personal demons.)
I teach my children primarily to fix things by righting the wrong. I fully realize that not all wrongs can be righted, but it is a valuable starting point. So many times I've had the pleasure of seeing my children come up with genuinely ingenious ways to right a wrong.
In disputes where I'm playing referee between two of my children, I gravitate away from deciding who is right and who is wrong. Instead direct conversation around, what happened, what people need, and how we can satisfy those needs within the creative realm of reasonable possibility.
As a baseline for issues that don't have a clear needs-based line to follow, I consider the systemic issues involved and re-engineer systems to incentivize good behavior and disincentivize bad behavior. Most often this takes the form of natural consequences.
Finally, I don't have angelic children. The reason it works is because we've been doing it for years, not because my children are more compliant, or I'm some saint. We all get upset, angry, and do things we regret. What we are all invested in is having a shared desire to make things better than we found them.
What I am skeptical of, however, are responses which attempt to frame children as willfully non-compliant. That says more about the person describing the behavior than the behavior itself.
if your measure of successful parenting is the 100% compliance with your rules: how can your child learn if every mistake is met with harsh disciplinary measures? how can it learn when every try/misstep isnt met with guidance but a penalty?
judging from your text your educational style resembles more of a bootcamp. no judgement here, but please rethink this.
Yeah it seems like with my own children good behavior is proportional to attention. They don't ask for much, but they don't like feeling like they're in my way. If I treat them decently, they'll let me do the things I need to do, and they know I'll come back to finish up with them later.
That's excellent, I too want my kids to know that they can do or accomplish anything with sufficient preparation. I try to work into their vocabulary (as well as my own) to say/think "Wow that person has trained a lot" when seeing feats of skill. When they themselves accomplish something I try to say "seems you have trained a lot!" rather than "nice drawing" or whatever.
Another hack I've applied in the way I talk with my kids is to sometimes say things that are obviously wrong. Starting with very obvious errors and as they grow older moving to more subtle lies about the way things work. If they don't catch the error I continue reasoning along the same line far enough into absurdity for them to get that I'm wrong. It makes them aware of questioning what people say and to think through themselves what is reasonable and what is not. And they now are very proud and happy whenever they are able to point out when I'm wrong about things.
I also never, ever proxy them towards other adults. If we are eating at a café and they want a napkin or buy another pancake they have to talk to the staff themselves. When they want ice cream I give them money and they have to buy it themselves. Because it is such an asset to be comfortable talking to people and getting what you want. It makes them believe in their own abilities.
What I think makes her approach powerful is that she does BOTH of two very important things: she expects the kids do more than they are, and she only asks them to take the step right in front of them.
I see a lot of teachers/parents/bosses doing one or the other. They demand more of a kid, but fail to properly assess where the kid is, and therefore ask a little bit too much, setting the kid up for failure. Or they acknowledge where the kid is but fail to really push them to take the next step, leading to complacency. Both ultimately lead to fear.
In practice doing it right requires immense knowledge of both the subject and the student, which is what makes it hard. But when done right, people respond by growing very fast. And the experience, while sometimes exhausting, feels humane and healthy.
From my kids, I demand that they do their share of work (at home and later, in life), that they be kind and respect other people (but it's okay that other people may not always like it when someone sets their limits), and that they don't continue to do things for wrong reasons without thinking about it first (like doing stuff to mostly impress other people).
I listen to what they want and try to hear what's true. I give them few things only: kids always want a lot of things but I do force them to prioritize and think it over a couple of times, so that they will learn to listen themselves to what they really want. And that they will learn to appreciate the value of what they have. You can't have everything in life or everything will lose its value.
I let them make choices themselves, given that some final limitations are followed. For example, they can wear what they like as long as I've checked they've got enough clothing so that they'll be warm. When they're spending their money, they can do whatever they want with it. For example, they can invest all their money in candy; however, I don't let them eat candy every day all over the week as we have specific days for goodies.
That's pretty much it. I don't have any vocational or educational goals or hobby-wise demands for them. I trust that they will eventually do what they simply can't not do. Long idle periods may precede but that's okay. As long as you're alive, time is indefinite.
I don't claim to have—or gain—control over their lives and choices, barring some rules they as kids need require and with regard to the physical world. I consider it good to be humble enough to understand that I have no idea whatsoever of what's best for them in their lives. I might have an idea or two about what I would do and I sometimes talk about that but I don't dare suggest they had to follow.
I don't always know how to do all that. But most of the time I think I get it right eventhough I'm still learning myself. I'll just mostly try to be there when they need support. And that's hard and demanding too, and I think that too often I can't do that either.
But I'm pretty confident that when a couple of kids live with me for about 18 years in a rather intimate living arragement, something will stick and that imprint will be close to what I wanted to say. Time only will tell if I turn out to be right or wrong but I merely hope they'll find it valuable, one way or another.
The skills I try to instill in my kids are things like: empathy, self-regulation, effective communication, personal boundaries, autonomous decision making, high-level planning, and the basics of adulting. The biggest one I think is adapting to change, because their world will be even more mercurial than the one we are navigating now.
I’m an expert software developer but have not spent time teaching these skills to my 10 year old son. He can get that from literally a hundred other places, and while I am a decent teacher, I’d rather spend our time together focusing on the things I place value on that I don’t think he is likely to get through other sources. I sometimes feel like a full-time therapist for my 12 year old daughter, what good is another A on her middle school report card when she is doing herself in trying to mold herself to meet others’ expectations? She needs an advocate more than a trade skill.
This is interesting to me from the perspective of being a parent and having high expectations for my children. I think that as a parent it's important to have high expectations, but that there's a tricky line to walk regarding what kind of high expectations to have. I grew up under the expectation of acing everything, and as a result I do feel a lot of what he talks about in the post. However, I'm trying to raise my children with a focus on persistence and confidence even in the face of the unknown. To that end, I'm always trying to find things for them to do that are a bit beyond their ability, but that they can solve with some work.
I've found that it's hard to break the habit of seeing "good" as synonymous with "right the first time" though, even when I know what the result of that attitude has been for me. I'm hoping that I can help my kids by focusing on the idea of learning from failure and improving by working hard, rather than trying to avoid failure. Any other parents out there working on this problem?
Agreed...I told my 4 children that their mother and I were guided by two principles:
1} That we wanted them to become a "good" person...we let them puzzle out what a "good" person was, to the extent possible, tried to model the behavior we hoped for, and pointed out obvious examples of good behavior in everyday life...
2} That we wished them a "happy" life...to that end we encouraged any interests they expressed, and did our best to share in the joys they discovered for themselves...
We exposed them to as many new opportunities and interests as possible, then let them choose which they would like to repeat...this part was by far the most difficult because of varied interests...
When there were disagreements between them--sibling rivalry--we encouraged them to solve problems themselves...can't count the number of times we said things like, "You both want to sit in that chair at the same time, but that's not possible...how can you solve this problem?"
Parenting is likely the most difficult job on the plant...so far everything seems to be on track...
Father of recent 3 year old. Big believer in modeling. I see other parents tell their kids to clean up, put stuff away, etc. I simply embrace cleaning up and my daughter follows suit quite often.
We also do whatever we can to enable her to participate in what we are doing (sadly computers are a big problem in that regard, much more than say chopping with a knife). Our kid is very well-behaved and cautious (except for tired/hungry breakdowns, of course).
I am also a big believer in the see-what happens school of action. Other parents are always encouraging (yelling at) their kids to share, particularly in support of aggressive children trying to take from their child. We believe in letting children experiment and realize that sharing leads to fun, greediness not so much. We demonstrate the power of choosing not to play others which is really the best way of handling unpleasant people/situations.
But at the heart of it all is simply being, authentically, the kind of person you want your child to be. They are programmed to learn actual behavior from their parents who 1) have been successful enough to reproduce and 2) have a similar genetic makeup meaning their behaviors are likely to be compatible with the kid's abilities.
So be a better person and relax. Oh, and look into Sudbury education for your kids which really teaches them how to be moral in a community.
I would be more patient and kind and sweet. I would encourage them more.
But, at the same time I would raise my expectations. I did this for the later kids and it's made them harder workers and more responsible.
I would spend more time teaching them to enjoy work instead of play. Find the joy of accomplishment.
I would never ever (ever again) overlook disrespectful, rude or nasty behavior in any way. Because a 3 year old making nasty faces is cute, but a 16 year old making the exact same face she has made for years is hurtful, insulting and simply aggravating.
I would recognize that almost all the bad behaviors a child has is the same I have, but without any adult filters to hide it properly.
I would be so much more vigilant about knowing what my kid is dealing with at school. We had a few really bad teachers that really affected my kids poorly and it broke my heart to only learn about it after the fact.
I would teach my child to be strong, brave and have real courage. Give her opportunities to have courage and really demonstrate how to stand up to others.
But I would do all of these things patiently. I would let her fail and not be angry. Failure is fine, as long as they know what is right and good to do, they will try again. But I was harsh on failure and it drove a wedge between my oldest daughter and me, that I had to work hard to repair after she had left home.
There are about a dozen moments in my kids lives over many years where I really wanted to not have to do something or face something. And the failure I had with my oldest gave me the resolve to not fail at it again. Things like making excuses not to spend time on something, or justifying not correcting bad behavior.
Which brings up another minor issue about behavior, I learned that you just have to tell a child what you expect them to do for almost all problems to be solved. I can often refer to my own behavior and say "do what I do".
I corrected mass family issues by simply fixing my own personal problems as well. Instead of trying to correct everyone else's, they came around to see I didn't tolerate or engage in the behavior I wanted to change in the family.
I could go on and on with this stuff, but ultimately, things changed and I dealt with my kids better when I made everything my own personal responsibility to resolve and doing so in a way I wanted to be treated. I know this sounds almost trite, but when you do it for real at first you don't get results, but if you permanently change, everyone around you can't help but see it.
I found that being kind and loving to my kids over all things, and taking full responsibility openly in front of the family (meaning I would gather everyone together to apologize for something I had done in front of the whole family) gives me a permanent solution to all future problems. You just can't foresee what each kid is going to be dealing with or what problems they will bring to the table, so I needed the ultimate answer to give me a strong base to solve issues from.
Last, I grew up in an abusive home, no details needed, but it was damn near a nightmare most of my childhood. And I thought (with my first kid) that suffer made a kid stronger and able to deal with the harsh realities of life. But this is not true at all. Kids who have a hard life can barely get up in the morning let alone face yet another struggle. So, after seeing this massive failure (I learned this from my mother, she said it plainly so I am not assuming this theory from her) I started to build my kids up. Tell them that hard work, doing your best and encouraging them to not give up and to face hardship head on made happier and more solid kids. Now when the younger kids face something hard, they take it in stride, where my oldest still struggles with somethings that I regret so badly for not helping her learn to face.
Sorry this got so long. You are raising adults, not children. The goal of parenting is a solid, happy, humble, brave, wise adult... (fill in your own here of course, these are only a few I could think of)
I said I can judge your kids better relative to other kids because I have extensive experience doing it. If you think you can do that better without any experience actually evaluating kids, then I think it's you who needs the reality check. It's such hubris to think you can do the job of an experienced professional better without any experience or training whatsoever, and that's the whole problem with busybody parents.
The few sentences you provided are highly correlated with very successful students. Learning Latin in 5th grade is not something 90% of children do. Immediately your kid stands apart for having done that. Same with sports and music. Combine that with good grades, and that's the profile of a top student. What more do you want? Again, what's your conception of a top student, and how do your kids not qualify? Is it because they're not getting straight A's?
Still so wild to me that you, as a father, are arguing post after post to me, a dog on the internet, that your kids are below average. I mean, regardless of what reality I live in, what's up with that? Who are you really trying to convince here?
Exactly. Thank you for responding effectively to a post that I wanted to respond do, but didn't know where to start. How do you explain to a non-parent what life is like for a parent? Or to explain to a parent whose kid has not had challenges what life is like with those challenges?
Before starting flashcards, parent-teacher conferences were endless variations on, "I know your son is brilliant, but we have a real problem here." Before starting flashcards, my son would look at his homework and have meltdowns because he didn't know any of it. (I'd prefer a system in which a grade 1 kid didn't have homework, but that's an issue for another discussion.)
I started the routine to fix that problem. Of course once I am doing this routine anyways, I want it to be effective and pleasurable. And since it is a fairly large piece of my life, I have put a lot of thought into how to do it well. But this effort is "get my kid on track for his abilities", and not "make my kid a star".
The problem is that well-behaved doesn't equate to better children.
To quote the YC application form "Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage."
Creativity, rule-bending and being outspoken are often hallmarks of innovators and entrepreneurs. But obviously patience and obedience are virtues as well. Culturally we have to make trade-offs deciding which of these we want to encourage in kids and which we don't.
It's silly to pretend there's just one way that's better across the board. TMTOWTDI.
EVERY child is unique and so there is no one way fits all to raising well-behaved and well-socialized children, so I adapt. I stay engaged with teachers at school and follow up when something goes wrong.
Teachers are often afraid to tell parents "bad things" about their child because so many parents are defensive and think their child can do no wrong. I try to recognize my children's shortcoming so that I can help then to improve.
When I first meet with a teacher I tell them this and that I truly want to hear about issues. I will tell the teacher, "In the past we have seen that X is an issue for him/her and s/he is working on improving on that area. If this or any other issues comes up let me know right away so we can correct it at home before it gets worse." I have found that this is more effective than just saying I want their feedback as teachers often think that is just lip service.
I set strict boundaries and rules and then I consistently enforce them. Often times I explain why a rule is there, but sometimes I just say, "I have my reasons." I find that in general children are more compliant with rules when they understand the reasoning, but the reasons behind some rules are too complicated for children to understand.
Apparently, these things work as my children are all high achievers and very well behaved compared to the majority of children I encounter on a daily basis. Other parents often ask me what is the trick to having such well-behaved kids.
My youngest daughter was a real handful the first couple of years in school and my wife and I had to put in a lot of work to change her behavior. Things that worked for the first two children had zero impact on her. Eventually, we figured it out. One of the most interesting things was that she had the same teacher for 1st grade and 2nd grade due to some re-org that happened at the elementary school. Out of the blue one night I received a phone call from her teacher (while she was in 2nd grade); when I answered the phone I assumed the teacher was calling to tell me there had been some sort of incident. Instead the teacher said how she just wanted to call to say what a pleasure it was having her in class and how she didn't know what we had been doing, but that it was amazing how well behaved she was.
So to sum up; if you are going to have kids then step up and be a parent.
reply