Both you and pdog have made interesting observations, I suppose, but as I said, neither book described our reality accurately. Our reality is far more complicated. As you point out, millions have protested, but tens of millions haven’t. As pdog remarked, the world in 1984 might be described as a totalitarian hellscape, in part, but parts of our world can also be described as such; pdog needs to look outside his locale, I’m afraid. Our world really is like a combination of those two books, even if your neighborhoods aren’t. We haven’t matched the world portrayed in either book, obviously, but it feels to me like were transitioning to a world a lot like a combination of those books. Let’s review things in a decade or two and see what comes to be.
They're both books about vast conspiracies that control the masses. Reality is worse than that, there is no conspiracy, just a bunch of well meaning people that think they are doing the right thing.
Of course, reality is also better than that. Many of the people that would ostensibly be equivalent to the party members in 1984 are the ones that are making noise about the dangers of what the government is doing. And the fascist hell hole aspects of Brave New World are certainly not our everyday (society more or less treats excessive use of things like alcohol and marijuana as serious problems. More so for individuals with higher levels of civic engagement...).
> Telescreen, newspeak, mass surveillance, perpetual war, "officials" acting as if what they are saying now is always what they said, etc. It's almost easier to list the things that we don't have in common.
> The thing I tell most people is that we currently live under more surveillance then folks in 1984.
> In ~20 years you'll see how silly you are for welcoming totalitarianism. You won't care until it effects you.
Three examples from this thread (one by you) of folks claiming "1984 is totally real and not a work of fiction", at least to the degree of what I originally said (you're misconstruing what I wrote for rhetorical value, but if you look at what I actually claimed, these quotes fit).
There are not "a number of very real parallels between the world we live in and the world of 1984", this is a misremembering of the content of the novel. You don't get to just hand select a few things from the novel and say, "Look, 1984!" in the same way you don't get to cite "well the humans in Lord of the Rings breathed air so it's the same as today!"
For example, without the critical, "or else you die" consequences of misbehavior in the 1984 novel, none of the "scary" things in the novel carry anything remotely approaching the weight or meaningfulness.
I strongly disagree with this. 1984 fits much better and is much less far-fetched. The society in 1984 is very similar to real-world society at the time; the only real differences are the ubiquity of government propaganda, rationing of resources, the state-sanctioned class system, and telescreens, and even all of these are already present in lesser ways and could conceivably be intensified to 1984 levels in five or ten years. I frequently experience things that are virtually identical to events in 1984 (e.g. government lies that society immediately accepts, people regurgitating pro-government phrases that are hammered into children's brains in public school, justifications for war and militarism, demonization of political dissidents, the newly-prominent surveillance, etc.).
The society in A Brave New World is a dystopian science fiction fantasy world that is a far cry from any society that has ever existed.
I think both books are good and offer important warnings to society, but 1984 is simply a much more grounded and realistic view of a conceivable totalitarian state in the near future.
Thanks for the recommendation, I will take a look at it.
This kind of reminds me how I felt when I was reading both those books. I had already seen all the memes about 1984 not being an instruction manual, and it left me kind of confused, because the direction the west is moving towards doesn't really resemble what was described in the book (at least, not yet). Then I read Brave New World and it certainly read like something more relevant to our current situation. Both are horrifying stories though, and it pains me that US, a nation that once prided itself for being 'free' has 2 conflicting mainstream ideologies, both of which call for a bigger government in an attempt to oppress the other side.
Well said, you get an upvote. I completely agree but I think your tone will be unappreciated by many here on HN.
But in all honesty, don't you think each book predicted a different aspect of our lives? For example, 1984 describes the government while F451 describes the sentiment of the crowds, and finally Brave New World describes our behavior as a society.
To be clear, I'm not "writing off" either book. I don't think either author was attempting to make literal predictions about what society will or might look like, so I don't consider it at all a failure if things are different. I just can't understand how Brave New World could be seen as more accurate than 1984. For example, if you wanted to film a 1984 movie, there is very little you would have to do other than go to some place with urban decay, throw up some Big Brother posters (perhaps placing them over the existing billboards encouraging police/soldier worship or admonishing "if you see something, say something"), put telescreen props in plain apartments, and throw in some extras in the right clothing. The actual palpable differences are quite small, because they mostly exist inside the minds of the average citizen.
For Brave New World, you would need strict population control (mandatory sterility), mass manufactured test tube babies with hatcheries and conditioning centers, working class castes that are chemically stunted, near-mandatory government issued hallucinogens, far less chaste sexual mores, etc.
Like I said, it is a science fiction fantasy world with a multitude of plot-significant fictional technologies. Even the human birthing process is far more unrealistic than the entirety of 1984. The only science fiction I recall from 1984 were artificial foods, telescreens, voice recognition, and some military equipment, all of which are quite realistic today (and were mostly so in real-world 1984).
1984, followed directly by Brave New World. Our world resembles a lot from each of these books. Much like in 1984, we have devices and companies constantly monitoring us (iOS, Android, Facebook, etc.), we have “news programs” and websites seemingly modeled after the “two minutes hate”, and we clearly have some Ministry of Truth-like misinformation getting spread around while accurate information gets lost or ignored. Much like in Brave New World, we have soma-like drugs, distractions and trivialities occupying people while they accept the world as it is and even shy away from wanting to change things. Really, we live in a world that blends together much of what was described in 1984 and Brave New World. Neither book predicted the future accurately, but together the picture these books painted is pretty damn accurate, and disturbing.
> specifically speaking 1984 is not a reflection of current reality for Americans, and you seem to agree with that
Of course 1984 is not a reflection of current reality. it was not a reflection of current reality back when it was written. Science fiction is not a fun-house mirror reflecting back a warped version of the present, its a kaleidoscope looking into the future.
I have not seen anyone in this thread say "1984 is totally real and not a work of fiction", or confusing that world with reality. I've only seen people using the novel as it was intended to be used (as a rhetorical and persuasive tool) and pointing out: "There are a number of very real parallels between the world we live in and the world of 1984, and the number of parallels is increasing. This is a giant blinking warning light, and we should change course"
> I'm not really interested in generic, "society is falling apart" conversations, as every society ever has been saying that about different things, and yes they even followed up with, "No but for us it's real!"
I sympathize with your lack of interest in that conversation, its not a fun one, but its important and your rational for avoiding it is flawed. True, very society every has had its doomsayers, and they were very often wrong. But a lot of them were right, too. Progress is not inevitable. Societal backsliding has happened many times throughout the course of human history, and democratic / rule of law backsliding has happened a lot in very, very recent history. Back when that opinion piece I linked too was written, the new york times had reporters based in russia. Now they don't.
Judge Doomsayers like me based on the specific doom we forsee, not on the fact that we are doomspeaking. (and now I promise I'm done editing, even for spelling, since thats gotten me hooked two bloody revisions ago)
> Our world resembles a lot from each of these books. Much like in 1984, we have devices and companies constantly monitoring us (iOS, Android, Facebook, etc.), we have “news programs” and websites seemingly modeled after the “two minutes hate”, and we clearly have some Ministry of Truth-like misinformation getting spread around while accurate information gets lost or ignored.
Is this a joke? Having recently reread Orwell's 1984, you can't seriously believe our society resembles Oceania in the slightest. The world may have some problems today, but the world in 1984 is war-torn, totaliarian hellscape from which no one can escape.
I honestly don't understand why the 1984 comparison is not appropriate here, because the book is about the oppression. I don't know how it's for you guys (that's why I asked), but for me it does not matter who oppresses me, government or corporations.
If you mention 1984 at all today, the anti-1984 police will come and complain that you'd dare compare anything in modern society to the dystopia in the book, even though I wasn't implying there was any repression. To me it's just an interesting similarity.
1984 specifically has not aged well to the point of its predictions becoming both trite and easily dismissible in a corporate setting. Its sort of exaggerated misery and book burning was so on-the-nose that society of course knee-jerk rejects anything associated with it. I think the lesser understood brother, A Brave New World, better illustrated how we arrived at these forms of control because we prefer them in the pursuit of happiness. Its this difficult trade-off which is inherently post-capitalistic, convenience for control, that we seem to not have a clear way to have a dialog around.
That's kind of a grandiose comparison don't you think? 1984 is a cautionary (prescient?) fable about a totalitarianistic dystopia and the other is a tedious rant about consumer electronics in a shopping mall.
I don't disagree or agree with what you've written generally here, but specifically speaking 1984 is not a reflection of current reality for Americans, and you seem to agree with that.
That's an important point, and I think there are a lot of folks who would try to disagree. There are people in this very comment thread that believe 1984 is not a work of fiction, and that's silly. Those are the people I'm disagreeing with.
I'm not really interested in generic, "society is falling apart" conversations, as every society ever has been saying that about different things, and yes they even followed up with, "No but for us it's real!"
reply