The changes were to add details explaining the 95% "success rate", the sources of data, and the exchange that he was using.
I think you guys are both creating a false dichotomy between "genius who cracked the market" and "liar who is fabricating data", when there is plenty of room in between, e.g. "someone who made a few lucky trades in a bull market over a short period of time," which would describe probably the vast majority of "winners" in the stock market.
It's the equivalent of asserting that everyone who plays a slot machine must break even, when in reality some people win and some people lose.
While writing his own trading system is a decent accomplishment, due to things such as an overall rising market in the time period involved and survivorship bias, the original author is likely to be completely mistaken about the reason for his winnings.
Given that he might convince other people to engage in high tech gambling in a less-favorable market than the one he operated in, strong words are called for in this case.
Needless to say, a lot of people, based off one story that I haven't yet finished,
now think I'm just another halfwit gamble-my-savings-away day trader.
The closest thing to a thesis of this post is that he is not a halfwit gambler as critics on Hacker News (including practicing market makers and quantitative traders) believe him to be.
On some days, I feel the same way about myself [that he is in fact a
halfwit gambler].
Not looking good.
You have no idea how much I've read up on financial history, probability, and
behavioral finance. You have no idea the number of profitable
traders (whose track records I get to see or witness in real time) I've spoken
to whom use a variety or combination of different methodologies.
Because you don't know what he knows, you can't be certain that he doesn't know anything. True. But, he doesn't record any specific knowledge here, so we still don't know whether he knows anything.
Looking worse now.
He then sets up several straw man arguments against him. But, amazingly, does not refute them.
Well, he's definitely mastered market manipulation. I take your point there.
But, the degree of absurdity across predictions undermines even that strategy over time. I think he does himself a disservice here. He should get out of his own way and allow his actual achievements to speak louder than irrational predictions (and other distractions).
That's very possible. Reporters tend to exaggerate certain elements, but he has a pretty strong math background. Either way you look at it, he's hacking the numbers to increase his own odds of investing in the right stuff.
The article seems to be fixated on how he lied to his finance sources, and acts like that was the only thing he did wrong.
If you read the SEC lawsuit [1], the problem is less that he lied to his finance sources and more about what he did with the funds, which was blatant market manipulation:
"Archegos, through Hwang and Tomita, effected this scheme by dominating the market for its Top 10 Holdings, as well as by “setting the tone” (i.e., engaging in large pre- market trading), bidding up prices by entering incrementally higher limit orders throughout the trading day, and “marking the close” (i.e., engaging in large trading in the last 30 minutes of the trading day) and by other non-economic trading, all with the goal of artificially inflating the share prices of its Top 10 Holdings."
I mean, obviously he lied to his finance sources. It's not like he was going to tell them that he was using their funds to manipulation the market.
Not to refute you but my understanding was that many people simply assumed something was wrong if only because of the consistency of returns he claimed were pretty much impossible.
IIRC at one point his numbers showed on a month to month basis losses only 4% of the time.
"The banks had created value, but not as much as everyone had thought and he took advantage of that."
He didn't 'take advantage' of anything. He did his homework and reached an accurate and objective conclusion about the state of the financial system. He then provided this information to the markets by betting on what his research predicted.
The real people who were taking advantage of the situation were the counterparties on his trades who were recklessly speculating on an unsustainable bubble (with other people's money).
He was so successful doing this because at that point there were so few other dissenting voices to compete against. I don't know how you can say that it provides no value to be right when everybody else is wrong.
Apparently he did this a while ago its just hitting the news now. As they say, its hard to time the market and it can remain illogical longer than you remain solvent. But hey I dont know verify what I say too.
> The market will decide a huge part of what comes after sharing something, so continually increase your odds by building, publishing, then repeating.
All the people here decrying everything he had done up until this point and proclaiming any degree of success is attributable only to luck is amazing. It's not the same as stumbling on a winning lotto ticking on the street (unless you have spent years scouring the streets looking for winning lotto tickets).
> According to one online source, Jeremy was a “Harvard-educated maths genius whose computer models alerted the bank to how small levels of defaults would quickly turn apparently sound assets into junk,” leading Goldman to start selling off at the end of 2006. OK, whatever.
Are you kidding me? This is huge; this is what prevented the financial crisis, as bad as it was, from turning into something much worse (it's "bad" for a bubble to pop, but it's worse for it to keep growing and pop later). This guy made the difference between billions of dollars going into houses that people couldn't afford and weren't worth the cost, and that same money going into productive investments. He probably contributed more to humanity than the rest of the list put together, with the possible exception of the other Goldman guy.
I know everyone thinks their own field is the most important, and I love academic maths, but goddam the snobbery towards the people who did something more directly useful with their talents is irritating here.
A lot of people are leaving comments critical of his goal of beating the market as playing a zero-sum game, just pushing wealth around, having no value for society, etc.
This strikes me as dubious and high-handed, to say the least.
First, as to the value of the endeavor. He is trying to, in his words, "come up with an algorithm that finds pockets of profitability in a cloud of probable randomness." If he could really do this, it would create capital flow, the ability to borrow, and so on, for people that could turn it into wealth that would not otherwise have access to that wealth. Financial markets serve a real function, and beating the efficient market hypothesis would improve their ability to fulfill that function.
Second of all, he's extremely interested in the problem. He's obsessed with modeling complex systems and sees this as a sort of holy grail. Surely the fact that he's interested in it and values it counts for a lot, especially if you grant the above point, that there is a value to what he's doing. He has his reasons for being interested in it, and it's a productive endeavor.
I think it's false that his lack of progress, or the reasons that he's frustrated at his lack of progress, have to do with these aspects of his goal. It's more that he's working on an extremely hard (arguably insoluble) problem where it's hard to see incremental gains. This is a problem that ambitious people in many different fields face.
It is difficult to imagine what sort of evidence will convince you. All sorts of behavior is possible under all sorts of unrealistic models.
I'd also like to note the irony of your snarky comment about wishing that those who disagree with you ought to study some math, given the background of managers like Jim Simons.
Edit:
> First, he didn't beat the market average 227 times in a row -- for most of those periods, he didn't lose money, but then a buy & hold investor also didn't lose money. A meaningful comparison would have to compare his outcomes with that for a buy & hold investor riding the ascending market value by holding a boring, geriatric index fund
The stock market rose by about 8 or 9% annually during that time. Dismissing his 227 positive months requires absurd contortions, like positing that his firm would invest in the stock market or t-bills for 11 months out of the year, and then make a series of large bets in the remaining month. Given that he made, I believe, 10k bets a year, the disparity in bet size must be massive to even come close to supporting your hypothesis.
I think he's trying to convince people he's an idiot, ergo, not fraud. Nice try Mr. MIT Physics grad, minor math, 4-year Jane Street International ETF trader.
Call me a skeptic (and this is an active board right now, I'm surprised I'm the first to say it) but this doesn't really add up. Guy is smart enough to fool the brightest HFT minds around the world and wipe out trillions of dollars in market cap from and make a lot of money 'from his investments' yet he loses all of his money 'from his investments'.
I think you guys are both creating a false dichotomy between "genius who cracked the market" and "liar who is fabricating data", when there is plenty of room in between, e.g. "someone who made a few lucky trades in a bull market over a short period of time," which would describe probably the vast majority of "winners" in the stock market.
It's the equivalent of asserting that everyone who plays a slot machine must break even, when in reality some people win and some people lose.
reply