I agree with the sentiment. I am still friends with people that were my direct reports many years ago. But, when I was their manager, I treat them fairly like any other employee. That they were my friends meant that we will hang after work hours. But, as I manager I could not be their friends in work hours. Favoritism will have been extremely unfair for the rest of employees, that still were very good people.

I also have friends that have been my managers. And, in the job I expected to be treated equally than the rest of employees. I guess that we are still friends because we think in a similar way about justice and work ethics.

With teammates has been different. I have been part of awesome teams that we have been friends while working together to later on drift apart as our interests outside the job does not match (quite usually people with children that have limited time to hang out).

The opposite of that are managers that "feel betrayed" when you leave a company that has been mistreating you, or tell you that they expect loyalty to the company that is not reciprocal. They are the "paterfamilias" of a dysfunctional and abusive family. There is nothing worse that a manager that expects to be treated as a friend, with loyalty and sacrifice but sees you as just a number.

I understand your point and view, but I don't agree. I don't agree because, as a manager myself, it's already hard enough to do this even if I don't have any special relationship with the person. If I had it, it would become stress and mental health issues.

So if true personal friendships are allowed, either the kind of person like the one I am should never get into management or we have to endure this extra pain that ends up affecting our personal lives.

Translation: "Of course I'm not a narcissist - I value the whole group of people that make me money!"

This is key for me too. When I was in a stressful people manager role, sorting through conflict and personalities every day, my favorite manager would always say 'people over companies.' Even if you have no intention of leaving your job or being friends with your coworkers, this thought brings everyone to the same level - we are all people who happen to be organized around this fictional thing called a company.

Being friends with management is doing something though. It’s messed up but if I had the resources there’s definitely people I know who I’d pay to have around just cos socializing with them helps me work better with no requirements on their own output.

> The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotions, and there are managers who're not psychopats and find it very hard to e.g. let people go.

> ...

> But please don't think that nobody cares about you in your workplace and you're a completely fungible cog. It's a horrible life to live. Let's not tell the already cynical young people that this is how the world works.

That's true, but the problem is the psychopathic organization exploits those relationships ruthlessly. It will use well-meaning people to lean on those relationships to get more out of employees, but then turn around and shit on them when it suits the org.

Corporations can be and (and usually are) psychopaths, even if they're made exclusively from well-adjusted, interpersonally-kind people. The whole is different from its parts.

That's why I call BS on the executive saying "I take full responsibility."

> I guess companies aren’t our friends after all?

They never were and never will be unless they decide to be friends. They may create a pleasing environment to do work in and care for good atmosphere in the workplace and press for decent interpersonal communication so that work gets done smoother, but it's all about the common goal of getting work done so they can get paid so you can get paid. This isn't friendship, it's optimization.

Until your employment contract has an explicit friendship clause of some sort, or unless you own or co-own the company, you have no guarantees you are anything more than a mercenary with some legal protections that kick in if you are let go. That's the very basis of capitalism where workers are one of the many manageable resources.

There are many reasons for this, but at least consider this: when team will grow, you will not be able to be friends with everyone, and those not included will feel that they are treated differently.

Then the trust will start to erode, because the only way to be included is to be "friends" with you - it will create all sorts of things in the working environment you don't want.

Working with friends is awesome, but only when they are on your level. Having friends as your reports is completely different beast.

Doesn't need to be in my experience, both the employee and employer can respect each other even when they don't get along well on personal level. However it is actually quite interesting that it is a relationship that can be weird and toxic, while still providing (economical) value for both parties.

It's not healthy to dissociate yourself so you can do harm to others. Doing harm to other people should be hard and if it's not hard, that is a mental health issue. The society we live in is fucked up, and being well-adjusted to a sick society isn't a measure of health.

That doesn't mean you never do harm to others: sometimes all your options harm someone, and the best option is the one that does the least harm. But in those situations you can have a clear conscience if you do your best to minimize the damage within the options you have.

> So if true personal friendships are allowed, either the kind of person like the one I am should never get into management or we have to endure this extra pain that ends up affecting our personal lives.

Good people aren't ideal capitalist robots, and ideal capitalist robots aren't good people.

That doesn't mean good people can't ever be in positions of power, but it's certainly more difficult to get there without making ethical compromises.

If you really believed what you were saying you wouldn’t have to rationalize it to yourself by claiming that people who don’t think like you must be miserable.

> Cause let's face it, co-workers are a friends substitute in this day and age.

That’s on you. If you’re using coworkers as a friends substitute it’s not surprising you get people who want you to leave them alone.

This sounds sort of like a culture built around having lots of temporary contractors around; or perhaps employees who are treated as temporary contractors.

You misunderstand. These employers/managers/etc can be decent human beings, but at the end of the day you are a resource to be utilized to further their goals in exchange for an agreed-up sum of money. As long as things are going well, everything's great for everyone involved. However, if/when things start going sideways - for example a round of layoffs are needed, they're going to make hard business decisions based on what's best for the company - your personal situation/needs will not be taken into account.

Don't mistake professional behavior and cooperation at work for friendship. They're not your friends.

That's not true as I always hangout with the people in different teams, and, we get along pretty well. I just don't do kiss-ass to my boss and I don't take advantage out of situations.

> Find ways to work together

We worked together for two years on daily basis. And I overcome a lot of bad behaviours but I can't stand to report to him

It most likely wasn't their choice. You can't really have that affect your friendships.

How am I being a jerk here, pointing out the obvious truths. I don't treat other people as enemies. I'm just speaking my mind about systemic problems.

I don't book company wide meetings that are (semi-)mandatory and waste thousands of person-hour of work time for the company, just because I enjoy it and am in position that can do it. I try to be mindful about the communication I initiate and treat other's people time with respect. I write TL;DR in my emails and optimize for groups performance, not just my own self-interest.

The thing you should deduce from what I wrote is that instead of being self-optimizing stupid/naive/cynical person, I actually (possibly irrationally) care about my craft and efficiency of the group I belong to, and can do my own critical thinking, instead of accepting status quo uncritically.

This just isn’t true, unless you’ve managed to find a supremely hostile workplace.

I’m always shocked at how cynical some HN comments can be about coworkers. I’ve had my fair share of bad coworkers over the years, but I’ve also found numerous wonderful friends and built lasting relationships with many people.

This idea that all coworkers are inherently out to get you is bizarre.

That's not a friend, that's a co-worker doing their job. There's a big difference between a friend and someone you get a long with well in a professional setting.