Exactly. Like simply wait for enough (obvious) green lights before making a move. Like, you know, mature, consenting adults. A modicum of tact and subtlety couldn't hurt, either ;)
No matter how much people try to avoid romantic entanglements at work, it happens.
And indeed, it's silly (and borderline delusional) to pretend otherwise.
How about instead we just agree not to hit on each other within a power-imbalanced professional relationship?
Seriously, I don't get how this is hard for folks. It's unbelievably simple. Be aware that you may have professional power over other people, and if you do, make an active effort not to flirt with them. Have the self-restraint not to mix an investment/supervisory relationship with romance or sex. Either it will feel coercive, or it's a conflict of interest waiting to happen.
Avoiding trying to sleep with your subordinates is not rocket surgery.
OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules.
First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the workplace that romance or sex should see the light of day is if every party is fully empowered to decline with not even the slightest hint of impact to the workplace, career, employment, etc.
A good rule of thumb: unless a coworker is inarguably already a personal friend outside of work then introducing even the hint of romance into an otherwise entirely professional relationship could be not just awkward but potentially compromising. In every situation, the balance of doubt should always fall on the side of not engaging in romantic behavior with coworkers. Another good rule of thumb: if there is a level or authority imbalance (enormously more so if there is a direct superior/inferior relationship between two coworkers) then everyone should tread ten times or a hundred times more carefully than they would with any other relationship.
Whoever is making a move should be hyper conscious of any signs of discomfort on the part of the recipient and should go the extra mile (or ten miles) to provide many more easily available "outs" than normal. In normal dating situations if an advance is not welcomed that's fine, two peers had an interaction, someone made a minor mistake, and probably no one will get hurt. In a dating situation with all the complexities, minefields, and pitfalls of a work environment if an overture is made that is unwanted that almost certainly means that the person making it fucked up royally. They failed to read the other person, and they made them uncomfortable, and they complicated their professional relationship.
The 500 startups thing is a near perfect case of the sort of sexual harassment that many get away with because it has just the thinnest thread of deniability[1]. People should not be inviting themselves into the room or home of a coworker, period. People should not be trying to get cozy, let alone try to date, people they have only casually met, especially if there is a power imbalance between them or if there is absolutely anything at stake in the professional relationship.
If this sounds like a lot of restrictions, it is, but it's the only way to make sure that people feel safe and comfortable in their workplace and in their career. The workplace is not a dating service. If you happen to make a friendship at work that turns into a romance, congratulations, but that's not what it's for.
If the first, or only, thought you jump to when thinking about a workplace where romantic overtures are a lot more difficult is "that sucks, how are dudes even gonna get with any ladies ever?" instead of "it would be nice if we could get to a workplace that wasn't so toxic it kept hemorrhaging female talent by the day" then you are part of the problem.
I'm not sure why this is hard... why is any amount of flirting, or innuendo etc. at work OK?
I do realize that people spend much of their time at work, and it's a place people meet.
Personally, now that we have dating sites and such I would not risk my career by trying to initiate a relationship with someone I am working with...
I'd rather avoid even just the mild awkwardness of someone being uncomfortable at me asking them for coffee or dinner, and having to then work with them after that.
The obvious answer to avoiding workplace issues seems to be never mix business with pleasure.
If the person who you proposition only has to consider the singular question of whether or not they are interested in you their decision will be natural and unforced.
Anyone in a workplace has to constantly consider how this interaction will help or harm future prospects and even if no power differential exists may feel pressured. Many people are weak and may feel dissatisfied or put upon, many are shitty at expressing themselves, asserting themselves, or even at analyzing their own feelings. Then people have to work together after inevitably some of those interactions go bad.
People express this issue as its some complex minefield. It's easy. Just don't do it. Get a hobby and meet people there.
Go to work do whatever you are paid to do and find romance on your own time.
Expressing romantic attraction to someone can be fraught. One party or other usually has to make some sort of leap, and that leap has the potential to backfire.
So. This is why adults learn how to do two things:
- Thing 1: Read the other person. It's entirely possible to take actions that could lead to romance, but that also allow both parties the ability to gracefully back out. Normal people should accept when the other person gently signals disinterest and attempt to restore the previous relationship. So I can believe that someone could form a solid and real romantic relationship with a subordinate.
But:
- Thing 2: Some people are creepy assholes with shit-bag pick-up lines who clearly don't see or care to see the lines between work and romance. These people say things like: "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you." Normal adults know that this is inappropriate and wildly uncomfortable (at best) for the target. It frankly feels like the actions of someone who has learned about women through Penthouse letters and porn (depending on their generation). It's like a pizza guy who thinks women opening their doors to pay for pizza are offering a sexual come-on.
Executive summary: Trying to establish a romantic relationship with anyone is tricky, especially if you're already in a position of power. But normal, respectful adults know how to do so in a way that doesn't ruin relationships, offend people, hurt people, or confuse business relationships. Generally they do this by not muddying existing relationships and by by giving the other person a graceful out.
I'm hardly saying you should prevent a relationship. I'm saying that you've got to pick one: Either both people can pursue a romantic relationship, or they can retain their manager/subordinate working relationship. It's up to them to decide which one they'd rather have.
As a general rule for life I've always made sure to keep anything romantic out of my work life. If there was someone important enough to me that I worked with who I wanted to approach in that sense I'd wait until one of us moved onto another job. I'm not willing to say the vast majority of work related flings and relationships end up in disaster but I'm sure a lot of other people won't say that the majority wind up as fairy tale endings, either.
I'm surprised more people don't live and die by this rule. It's something I decided on as a teen to avoid drama, purely, in my life. It wasn't something constructed from advice from elders or lessons learned through other people's nightmare stories. This idea wasn't constructed for a lifetime of self preservation or to protect something important to me. It was a fairly simple concept about reading the situation and showing respect for everyone involved including co-workers.
A workplace is a very special setting though. Your coworkers are people you have to be around day in and day out, and to mix any kind of romantic pursuit with that is just asking for trouble. Especially in this day and age when "perception" can easily shade into outright paranoid attitudes.
> "Keep social distance around people you have power over" seems extreme (especially if you interpret it like many in this sub-thread do) and almost strawmannish: You could ask, if you're a person of some standing and seek a relationship who are you allowed to ask?
Anyone outside your field and/or occupation. It's that simple.
I actually don't understand this line of reasoning at all. You propose it as a bit of a strawman, but there's always at least one earnest comment in such threads to the effect of "well, now you can't flirt with ANYONE at work!"
That's correct. You can't flirt with anyone at work.
The problem isn't the set of social guidelines that say you don't try to fuck your colleagues. The problem is the people who seem to think that because their personal inclinations make it unpalatable to seek romantic encounters outside of work, that they're entitled to seek romantic encounters at work.
They/ you are not. Find hobbies; ask friends for friends-of-friends that are looking; hit up OKCupid or Tinder or what-have-you. There are any number of ways to seek romantic entanglements that completely divorce you from the issues of power dynamics that occur when courting professional colleagues.
> That's true, but I've given this a lot of thought, and I've come to the conclusion that it's simply impractical and inhumane to forbid romantic/sexual interest in a professional setting. Let's face it, most new people you meet in your adult life, you meet through your job, and many people start relationships and even marriages with their coworkers.
Romance in the workplace shouldn't be forbidden under any and all circumstances but there should be a number of definite parameters:
I don't think there is anything wrong with politely inviting someone to hang out after work to see if the interest is mutual. If the answer is no, that's it, you don't ask again.
Expressing 'sexual interest' at work to me means communicating that you want to have sex with someone, which I don't think is appropriate at work. That would be along the lines of inviting someone to spend the night, sexual innuendos, or other forms of flirting. All of that is problematic in the workplace.
Some people will argue, "What if the interest is mutual?" Sure, but many people don't/won't perceive when it is not, and work is not for finding sexual partners.
'Romantic interest' is more along the lines of communicating you'd want to date someone. Even that is not something that should be going on at work. If two coworkers establish a connection and pursue that outside of work, ok.
Even then, a superior should never date subordinates. And in a sales or investment situation, it should be off limits to proposition someone seeking the sale/investment. Someone pitching their startup shouldn't feel pressure to reciprocate someone else's advances in order to preserve a chance for funding.
> I think we should encourage emotional maturity and sensible behaviour instead. Although this too is difficult, because most people can't achieve the former, and the latter is extremely elusive especially in the current climate.
I would agree, but what does 'sensible' mean? I think many times the offender didn't think they were doing anything wrong. I think people need to speak directly to what is ok and what is not ok so that there's a shared understanding.
I think it is reasonably easy to prevent people from dating subordinates in the workplace. Up front, you explain that the policy is one word: don't. If it ever happens, you fire the higher-level person promptly. No excuses, no second chances.
Bosses should know not to have sexual or romantic relationships with people who work for them. We all know how one has to be careful what one says to one's boss. And we all no how hard it can be to say no to a boss or boss's boss about anything. It puts the junior person in an impossible situation.
But it's just as bad from the employer's perspective. Suddenly two people who are supposed to be putting the company's interests first have a strong conflict of interest. And when the relationship ends (as most do) you have a whole different set of unnecessary potential conflicts in the workplace.
There's different takes on this. To me, the workplace is free of romance or any sexual advance of any kind from my part.
I would never go beyond minor superficial personal interest (how was your holiday) at the coffee machine, and it ends there. Even if interest was shown in me, I'd deflect. Not going to happen.
That said, I do agree with the larger overall point that in today's digital and more sensitive world (don't have a better word), it likely is harder for people to connect that way.
Get off your cross, we need to the wood. Lots of people, including in the tech industry, manage to interact with potential romantic partners both romantically and professionally, without triggering lawsuits or tearful Medium apologies. They do it by being mature, considerate, and respectful, and accepting of any outcome, without consequence. If you see the gross behaviour of Sacco et al and think "OMG I'm next!" then that's on you, not the prevailing culture.
Mixing business and romance is in itself very difficult to pull off without a massive explosion of drama that hurts everyone involved and spares shrapnel for those who just happen to be nearby. Add in the employer/employee dynamic, and we're talking at best a ton of work to try (and usually fail) to mitigate the power imbalance, and at worst a sexual harassment lawsuit.
You've described yourself as someone who finds it difficult to interact with others. You find yourself falling for someone in a situation where you couldn't help but interact with her. In other words, your hindbrain is screaming "take the easy way out!".
I get it... our society makes the location, selection, and courting of mates difficult and extremely high-risk for heterosexual males. It's dysfunctional, and it needs to stop. Women are trained almost from birth in a set of behaviors and expectations that hamstring you at every turn, and yet most feel powerless in a situation that can be just as frustrating for them.
Learn to be more effective in finding and wooing mates in a situation where you aren't mixing different relationship types, and do your best to step out of the expected patterns. When you aren't reacting to a self-imposed scarcity, passing attractions won't be such a big deal, they'll just pass.
--Susan
P.S. -- Yes, I know I just made all of that sound far easier that it is. It's not easy, but it does work if you go about it right. I know this because I tend to send my male friends and partners into the world far more capable at selecting and wooing interesting women than they were when I found them. It's just another skill to learn.
This is a really good point. A lot of things are going to collide if people are working too much and stressed.
The usual "best practice" advice on avoiding harassment is to not pursue romance at work... but how are folks supposed to do that if they don't have time to pursue it anywhere else? Alcohol might only be a minor contributing factor at that point.
> I've crushed on co-workers; I've had crushes on professors; I've had crushes on classmates. Attraction in a work/study environment is real. The thing is ... you don't have to do or say anything, guys. Just keep that stuff locked down like a non-creep and it will eventually pass.
Expressing romantic interest in a co-worker or classmate is not de-facto inappropriate. Your advice is solid for folks in positions of power, but for the rest of us, not so much. The idea that young men and women who work together should be forbidden from exploring relationships with with classmates or coworkers is a kind of bizarre neo-puritanism. (Your human nature? That's bad! Ignore it!) And for what? To prevent the occasional, momentary discomfort of rebuffing a respectful advance?
Of course nobody should have to endure sexual harassment, socially inept creepiness, or blind persistence from unwanted suiters. And people who engage in these behaviors should be paid a visit from HR (and eventually receive a pink slip). But the vast majority of adults are capable of tactful communication, and should not be prevented from exploring the full possibilities of their interpersonal relationships simply because the relationship began at work.
It's tricky. Normally you're not supposed to establish intimate relationship at the workplace if there is a clear power difference between the parties. Similarly to how teacher-student relationships are frowned upon (even if both parties are adults). The problem is simple to understand.
Exactly. Like simply wait for enough (obvious) green lights before making a move. Like, you know, mature, consenting adults. A modicum of tact and subtlety couldn't hurt, either ;)
No matter how much people try to avoid romantic entanglements at work, it happens.
And indeed, it's silly (and borderline delusional) to pretend otherwise.
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