Hacker Read top | best | new | newcomments | leaders | about | bookmarklet login

The one thing I have learnt is it is never too early to fire. The only exception is if you haven’t been clear with your expectations.

The one counterintuitive piece of advice is don’t overpay (I made this mistake in version 1 of my company). Pay above the average the employee could earn elsewhere, but not too much over.

You want to pay enough that no one leaves to get a pay rise, but not so much that they can’t get a similar salary elsewhere. A smart unhappy employee that feels they can’t leave can cause a lot of damage in ways that are hard to identify and fix.

Edit. I think I was unclear about what I meant by average pay - it is not the average for the job title, but the average the employee could earn in the industry. These two numbers are close most of the time, but with high performers they will be significantly different.



sort by: page size:

The first step should be giving some disclosure to the candidate. Say, "55k? You're so silly. We'd hire you for much more than that, we only pay fair salaries here. Let me talk to my people and see what we can make available."

If the other people aren't providing a value commensurate with their compensation, you should fire them whether you have an expensive replacement on tap or not. If they are providing such a value, it's probably better to keep them in place. Too often people overestimate new hires and underestimate the value of institutional knowledge. But if you have people that need to be fired anyway, that'd be a good opportunity to do it.

If your bosses think you're an idiot, you should leave. If you ask the board for more money and they have more money to give, they'll probably give it, unless they think you're an idiot, and then you should quit.

If there's no way you can get the additional allocation, just tell the candidate that you'll hire him at 55k for now if he's still interested and give him a bump when the money for a raise materializes.

If you're upfront with people, life is much easier, and you'll find yourself looking over your shoulder much less. :)


As a manager of engineers I would add one thing to this generally good advice:

After you negotiate the raise, make sure you live up to it.

If you kick ass at your job, your manager will very rarely worry too much about what they're paying you, they'll just be thrilled to have you on the team. But if you're not living up to the high expectations you set for yourself then they're really going to regret paying you that extra 5k (or 10k or 20k or whatever).


#0 Don't pay anything close to what the employee is worth. Underpay, furlough, slow-pay your best employees to really build that desire to see if the grass is greener elsewhere.

Keep in mind that if the company now feels like they're overpaying that may impact their future decisions about salary .

I'm on job #3 since graduating from college 10 years ago. The average raise amount I've gotten each year staying at a job has been 3.7%. The average bump in pay I've gotten changing jobs has been 15%. This is despite receiving an excellent performance rating every year, for 10 years, at each of the jobs. The reality of the job market today, especially at big public companies, is that the framework in which they operate does not allow them to give large awards to good performing employees.

Usually the only way to increase your pay is to get another job or threaten to leave your job if you don't get a raise. Threatening to leave is generally a one-shot deal and will probably paint a permanent target on your back.

My sad advice to maximize earnings is to stay at a job for 2-4 years then move on for a 15-20% pay raise.


My problem with the article is that if you try to follow all of that advice, you are left with no real leverage to work with, and the sad reality of the vast majority of jobs is that you will not get a raise unless you have leverage.

If I had to compile my own advice, which is inevitably incomplete but I think gives more actionable advice than the article, I'd say:

1. Don't openly criticize your colleagues. Word tends to get around and it erodes their trust in you.

2. Don't threaten. That makes your manager defensive, which is counterproductive. You can imply your dissatisfaction and your manager will infer the risk of losing you, but threatening to leave tends to get a defensive reaction.

3. If you are trying to be less underpaid, then approach it from a perspective of fair compensation for the work that you do. Do not hide that you think it's unfair, but also make sure that you're well-justified in thinking it's unfair.

4. If you are trying to get paid more despite being fairly compensated, then have a discussion about where you have to up your game to earn more.


There is obviously a lot of nuance here. Certainly more than I covered in my 4 sentence comment. Generally with most companies there will be a salary range for most positions. You're right that if that salary range is out of wack with the prevailing market rates the company is unlikely to retain good people (or attract them in the first place).

But assuming the range has been set more or less correctly you're likely to have a salary at least in the ballpark of what's appropriate.

My point was really about pushing your manager to go towards the high end of that range (either for a new job offer or a raise at an existing job. doesn't matter). As long as you've got some ammo in your corner this will generally be possible. But then afterwards I go back to what I said. Live up to it so your manager doesn't end up regretting his decision.


I generally agree with your advice, but what I've seen at a lot of companies is that HR will put in policies that really tie managers hands. I know one place I worked at was notorious for underpaying people, and HR was stingy about how large of a raise someone could get, but if you brought in an offer letter they'd almost always match it. Which IMO is a very dumb policy -- basically the only people that got paid well were the people that already had one foot out the door.

Try not to worry about annual raises within your company. Chances are you'll get anywhere between zero and cost of living, with maybe the best performer in your group getting an extra percentage point. It's just not worth getting worked up over.

Think instead about increasing your value as much as possible while you're at this company. Once you're demonstrably worth a lot more than you're currently making, it's time to move on. The next guy will pay you what you're worth, whereas your current employer will find excuses to keep paying you what they're paying you.

Repeat this every 2-3 years early in your career and before long you'll be where you belong, salary wise. It's a shame that it works this way, because often one of your first companies will be a really nice place to work. If you stay there, though, you'll stay underpaid throughout your career.


I find the tone of the article a bit confronting, but I agree with the points.

Most of the time, raises in your company do not outpace the market pay. Also moving early and often keeps you sharp, learning new skills and focus on delivering value.

The only thing I'd add is "don't be rude" and "don't be an ahole".

Leave a company as if you're a senior member...with class, grace and minimal interruption to the team. Leave a trail of good will, not burned bridges.


Agreed - new hires always get the current market rate, which always higher than what existing employees are paid.

Also on the flip side, if you've been in a role longer than say, 4 years, you should interview at other companies. You're probably getting underpaid. (Even if you've gotten a promotion). You don't have to jump ship, just see what's available.


I think this is great advice. You're not always in a position to use this advice, this is the most extreme approach, but I think it's good to be aware of the most extreme approach. Very often a lot of this doesn't apply. 2 Years ago the company I work for really struggled to fill the roles in my team. We would've been very flexible with compensation to bring people in. Today we simply don't have that problem, if you push too hard we have about 3 other good people for the role. 1 year ago we would've dismissed you out of hand for working from home, today that would absolutely be part of our negotiating armory. It's very important to probe and find out where the company is flexible.

Also, it is actually true that if you've really managed to sell yourself to HR and got a big old salary and you end up on my team underperforming it's going to be a much bigger problem for you. At my current company you want to be underpaid and overperform - because our compensation structure is highhly bonus orientated so you don't need to worry about it working out. At previous companies I've worked at your compensation for the entire tenure at the company is set the day you sign - bonuses and salary budget are both determined as a % of base pay and your ability to increase your compensation is basically a fight between you and the rest of the team who are all part of one budget (horribly dysfunctional system, accidentally hire 1 person at a grade level lower than where they should be and it's going to completely screw your whole team's compensation for the next couple of years).


Okay, this is a very interesting article with a high risk approach used by somebody who hasn't ever had to change jobs so comes from the point of view of somebody with a single data point. I'm not saying disregard it, just that...your mileage will vary. As an employer, I'd never ever play these games with a prospect.

As an employee, I've used a different approach (note: this is not intended to be reflected on the very strange environment of a startup, but on more established businesses)

When you start the job, ask for a salary that you'd be happy with, in fact give them $5-7 thousand dollar range with your ideal salary somewhere on that range (usually on the low end), and would stay happy with so long as it continued to rise at a reasonable percentage slightly higher than inflation. You also get information based on where they come in on your range.

The very first time you get a pay raise under that percentage or that doesn't keep up with inflation? Change jobs. If your pay raise isn't even keeping up with inflation, congratulations your reward for your last year's work is a de facto pay cut. That's what your employer thinks about you. Time to leave, period.

In one case I secured a better paying job in another part of the company, gave my intent to leave and was given a counter offer with a promotion and a double digit pay raise that beat where I was going. I told them that if I stayed, I would be committing to 12 more months, if my pay raise was again unacceptable I would leave. The next year the raise was below inflation, and I left for a much better job.

If the economy is good, give yourself a raise when changing jobs, treat it like a promotion, give yourself two years worth of pay raises for the new job when getting down to salary negotiations.

If you get promoted, expect at least two years worth of pay increase percentages. If you don't receive that, it's not a promotion, it's just more work for you. Never take-on additional responsibility without additional reward.

If they don't ask for your salary requirement, see what they offer, if it's low don't feel afraid to point that out and ask for a more realistic salary. In many cases I've worked in expensive cities, in small offices, that are part of very large companies in different states. Their salary expectations may be great where their HQ is, but might stink in the city. Point that out.

I've also worked in places where the yearly raise percentages reduce as your pay increases. So a starting employee on a starting salary might easily see double digit increases year over year, while an experienced employee might barely keep up with inflation. They struggled to keep experienced talent around.

If you're offered a choice between a small bonus and a pay raise, take the pay raise. That increased base pay makes a difference forever. Say the bonus is $5000 and the pay raise amounts to $2000 the next year. In three years it's worth $6000. In ten it's worth $20000 even if you never get another pay raise again. It's pretty much the best guaranteed investment you can ever make. Now, consider that it'll become part of your base pay history that you then make raises off of, which are percents of your salary, that raise is worth even more! Employers know this and try and convert pay increases into bonuses all the time, it's a one time payment that then gets off their books if they have a bad year the next year. Don't fall for it. There are exceptions, extraordinarily large bonuses shouldn't be turned down of course.

One you accept a salary (this includes your pay increase), commit to working there for at least 12 months. It can suck sometimes, but long term it looks better on your resume. I've typically put in 3-5 years at most places. I've never had to have one of those "why did you leave this prior employer after 3 months?" discussions, but I have had to have "why did you leave this place after working there so long?". In this market, working too short or too long can be unusual. The employee who's working someplace for 17 years and then suddenly wants to change jobs is a red flag. It wasn't boredom that made them change their job, any job is boring after a few years. Getting to 17 means they can beat that problem. Something else happened.

Following this plan, Over the last 18 or so years, starting out with a yearly pay of under $18k, I've managed to get consistent pay increases that are more than double inflation while working for bigCos, year over year pay increases of 15 to 20% have not been uncommon (if you aren't too stuck to a single company). I'm not "rich" by any means, but I live a very comfortable boring suburban life free from any debt beyond a rapidly disappearing mortgage on a very comfortable home with enough left over for lots of overseas travel every year. In about 5-6 years I'll have paid off my home, gone completely debt free, and then will literally have more money than I can spend in a normal day-to-day life. I still have to work, but I rarely have to think much about what things will cost when going out shopping. I went to normal boring state school for university, and have managed to consistently make (or grow my salary faster) than every single one of my peers who went to a "better school". Any advantage they had starting out has more than disappeared over the years.

Startups are a very different beast. And I know that alot of this won't be popular with the startup founders here ;)

#1 Don't accept a bad salary. You'll get all the lines about equity and stock options etc. In the end, unless you are one of the first employees and you happen to hit the lottery and end up at the next billion dollar company, your equity will be worth at or less than most normal bonus packages you'd receive anyway if it's worth anything at all. Take a normal salary. A company with good funding shouldn't squawk at paying their people decent salaries. But you might take a small hit on the salary. Keep a mental note of what this hit is if you go back to a BigCo. Correct for it, act like you were paid the higher amount, when negotiating your new salary with BigCo.

#2 You are very tied to the ups and downs of the company. Expect not to get a pay raise from time to time, especially in the early days until the company starts making a profit. If the goal of the company is not to make a profit and that you'll get your reward out of options, consider your payout divided by the number of years you'll have to put in and see if that makes you happy. Consider what would happen if the payout is $0.

#3 If the business booms, time to renegotiate your salary. Sometimes the company hits super profitability, point out that you took a smaller salary to get the company through the lean years and now it's no longer lean. If you went multiple years without a pay increase, expect the first increase to be unusually large (to make up for it) and future increases to be more normal.

#4 Don't accept ridiculous paycaps. They're stupid. A couple very well known startups cap their employee pay at $120k. One I know of hasn't paid raises for years. The employees who took a pittance first-out-of-college salary are still getting paid that 3,4 and 5 years later -- but now many are married and quite a few are having kids. Their company recently advertised that their valuation is nearing double digit billions (but now in their 5th or 6th funding round with no public plans to sell or go public so equity these days is almost worthless). Does that sound right?

Remember, what's your payout going to be divided by years. Suppose bigCo buys this startup tomorrow, many of those employees might see a sweet $150k payout. Or $30k per year for 5 years of work. Suppose their starting salary was $50k that means they've been working for $80k the entire time. Instead of 5 lean years they could have had 5 satisfied pay years elsewhere.

Even worse, when moving on to another company, especially a bigCo, their suppressed salary puts them way down at the bottom of the pay scale. It's "diseased" their future salary prospects. Just like taking a small raise instead of a bonus "boosts" your future salary prospects, they've managed the inverse...and because the caps and pay policy of this startup are very publicly known, they can't negotiate or talk their way it.

#5 All is not lost, perks are awesome, figure out how much it would cost you out of pocket for the perks you use and then figure that into your total compensation. Some places are receptive to "my total compensation at my last place was $xyz, but I'm looking for a different kind of mix of $qrzw". These are more complicated, but you can say "my last employer gave me about $5k a year in perks that I used. I'd rather have that as salary here". It's reasonable, even if not every place is receptive to it.


As a manager, it's been a personally eye-opening experience seeing how companies pay staff and how the constraints a manager has to work under affects their pay rise decisions. People wishfully hope that they get paid based on their contribution/skill level, but there are so many additional factors that come into play.

In all the technical teams (sysadmins, dbas etc) that I've managed, I've consistently seen variations of between $50k-100k between the lowest and highest paid person of the same skill (ie I'm not comparing junior to senior staff).

The things I learned as a manager:

* Always know what the market is paying for your skills. Even if you are not looking for another job, remain subscribed to job websites so you understand what the market is after and what it is paying

* Sharing salary information with people you trust is incredibly valuable - you need to know where you stand. It's in the companies best interests to keep everyone in the dark - it means you won't know your true worth.

* If you love your job, by all means stay - but make sure you aren't using that as an excuse to cover up the fact that you are scared to make a jump, or that your ego is wrapped up in your job title. There are no medals for long service - and as companies (in my experience) generally only pay market rates to external hires, you are better jumping jobs every few years than staying in the one place. You'll develop more skills, earn more money, and I believe in the long term more employable.


I usually offer 0,6-0,8 of the salary they will get at middle level (i.e. reaching full autonomy and being able to complete 90% of tasks). This offer is limited in time: they have 6-12 months to grow or they are out. Recognition of their personal growth and higher salary is a good motivation to stay if there’s no red flags in the company (poor processes, toxic environment, frequent overtime etc).

As a manager, I thought this initially too. But here's the kicker - the employees sit there and take it. Sure they may complain about being underpaid, but few will move to another job.

I remember in my previous job, I had a senior sysadmin who had been with the company for 10 years and earning $70k ... we were hiring new sysadmins off the street for $100k. He complained about it and I tried everything I could to get him a payrise because he was a good performer - but company policy was that pay rises could not be more than 10% without exec approval. So the best I could offer him was $77k - in my justification for more, I compared market rates, how much it would cost the company if we had to replace him ($100k in salary alone let alone recruitment costs) etc - but the reply back from HR was 'we bet he won't leave'. And sure enough he didn't. It really saddened me - the fact is he could get a job elsewhere that paid way more, but he was too 'comfortable' in his position.

In my experience, people tell themselves all sort of stories why they don't leave - I'm still learning lots, I like the people I work with, I need a little more experience etc - all of this may be true to a degree, but going by the number that complain about being overworked/underpaid, a lot of them simply are excuses.

Companies know and understand this - and hence people often may get underpaid.


You were fired for simply asking for a raise?

I was once in a position where a new director came in and brought in a bunch of his own people, as he starting letting go existing staff. I quickly found out that they were all making a lot more than I was, although not quite a $50k difference. I was on thin ice just for being an existing employee. I liked my job and my company, so I took the strategy of not letting them get rid of me by means of performance. I didn't concern myself with salary differences.

Within some 3 years, my salary had almost doubled. When you're the lowest paid, and you're outperforming those at the top, the money can start to shift on its own.


If you can't leave, you have no leverage and rely on the benevolence of others (a trait which is exceedingly rare). I've been in the situation where I went from being the junior hire to the team lead, with only minor pay adjustments. All it took to fix that was to point out (nicely) that I expected to be paid what I was worth, and they had the choice to do so or to risk me walking out. Line up an alternative, then leverage that into a better situation. If you have no alternative, you're not underpaid, regardless of fairness.

Seems like very good advice to get a raise. Please don't take it too far, though: Always going for the high-visibility stuff can be quite annoying to your co-workers.

At my former job, I asked for a salary based on a statistic on programmer salaries. I was certain not to be underpaid, as well as never getting an astronomical salary. It was totally worth it to me. It meant spending time on the things I though were right, and not worrying about how it would look to management. YMMV

next

Legal | privacy