>It's a misconception that you could avoid being in the felon caste by not breaking laws?
With the number of overturned sentences coming out of the courts lately, yes, it seems you can go to jail without ever having actually committed a crime.
>You also are repeating a common misconception when
It's a misconception that you could avoid being in the felon caste by not breaking laws? That's what he said. He didn't say "if you want to gamble with not joining the felon caste, you have fair odds". Lots of soapboxing ITT, threads should decapitate at the first post with 'systemic' in.
> it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail.
No one accidentally gets thrown in jail, its always an intentional act by another person.
And it is very easy to suddenly get thrown in jail, particularly if you are poor and/or non-white.
> If the violation is minor and non-violent, then by the time it gets to that point, the person will have had many chances to straighten up (more often than not) and simply chose to ignore the warnings.
That's...very much not true. It might be true if you are referring to post-conviction incarceration, it is very much not true when talking about pre-trial confinement as a means of ensuring appearance. Plenty of minor and non-violent offenses are arrestable, rather than merely citable, even if the accused has no prior record.
> We too casually jail people without actual convictions and pretend it's OK because they aren't being held as convicts. But the kids are impacted just the same.
Is there a better alternative? And are you suggesting that a significant number of people are being held in jail indefinitely without convictions? I find that hard to believe. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I don't know that it's as much of a problem as you seem to be framing it to be.
> It's so wrong that rich folks can just skip jail.
He hasn't been convicted of a crime. What's wrong is for people who haven't been convicted of a crime to spend time in jail, especially in situations like this where he isn't posing a physical danger to the community (and indeed won't even be leaving the house anyway).
>This is not true. You don’t have to look hard for examples of people being jailed in the US for holding unorthodox positions.
This rings alarm bells for me. Could you give an example of someone jailed in the US for the mere holding of an unorthodox position, rather than a concrete action, in the last, say, 30 years?
Not being in the class of people against whom the law is likely to be enforced to it's fullest extent is either very easy or very difficult, depending largely on circumstances of birth (though some other factors play a role.)
Being born white and not in the lowest economic class helps a lot in the US, for instance.
> Criminals can be put into prison only if they can be convicted.
Huh? A large percentage of those jailed in the USA have not been convicted of the crime for which they are charged. They are detained until trial because they cannot afford bail.
>At some point, yes. They are aren't playing by society's rules (committing three felonies) and should be removed. If you have two felonies, perhaps don't rob trains?
It's been argued[0] that most of us don't commit three felonies in a lifetime, but three felonies a day.
While that may be somewhat hyperbolic, it also points up something important about our society. If I were you, I wouldn't be so excited about sticking "three time losers" in prison for decades. It could be you -- for what you did yesterday.
> Generally you get put in jail for committing crimes.
That is true for prisons, but not jails. There is a big difference. Most people in jails are awaiting trials/hearings or other procedures. They haven't been convicted. I'd say not convicted 'yet' but an increasing number are never convicted. That doesn't mean they are innocent. Some are, but they may also go to diversionary programs without convictions.
Many individuals are held in jails pending psychiatric evaluations, after which no charges are brought as no prosecutable crime has been committed. And there is a very small subset of persons, material witnesses, who are held in jails without any suggestion that they have committed any crime.
Children certainly don't see much of a difference between jail and prison, but that's the problem. We too casually jail people without actual convictions and pretend it's OK because they aren't being held as convicts. But the kids are impacted just the same.
> but for every repeat customer of the courts there are 10 people who commit felonies once or twice and never do it again
No, there aren't. Actual recidivism rates for felons are much higher, > 50% reconconvicted within 5 years of release from prison. There simply aren't ten 1-2 time felons for every serial felon.
>It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly.
Wow. It's THAT SIMPLE! Would you like to report this to the media or should I?
Most "criminals" are people who are from severely disadvantaged socioeconomic and/or family backgrounds. Gee, what a coincidence. You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay afloat? Shocking I tell you.
>What makes you think they want to be a 'productive member of society'?
What a pompous ass statement. What makes you think they DO NOT want to be a productive member of society given the proper opportunity?
Clearly not. Prison does not work, for most definitions of 'work'.
If you want to stop people re-offending there are cheaper and easier ways.
Prison is used because of weird financial incentives and because it's politically advantageous to say that you're locking criminals up.
> We threatened them with a fucking lifetime in jail, and that still did nothing to stop them committing crimes?
Most people pay no attention to the law when making choices about the way they live their lives. I do not steal. The reason I do not steal is because that's how I was raised, not because it's illegal and carries a potential jail sentence. Punishments might make someone pay attention to the methods used - murderers still kill, but they make an attempt to destroy evidence.
Have you heard about the guy who committed 2 crimes, and was then wrongly arrested and convicted for a 3rd, and sent away for life? All appeals failed. He escaped from jail, gathered evidence, and cleared his name. That 3rd conviction was quashed.
Unfortunately, escaping from prison is a crime, and so he was arrested and convicted of that, and returned to jail for the rest of his life.
> Have severe jail sentences rid the world of illicit drugs users, murderers, cutpurses, burglars, vandals, fraudsters, rapists or anything else?
No, but you have to put things into context. Prison is a lot worse for a 50+ year old with a few million in assets than someone who's only other alternative is working at a fast food restaurant for minimum wage. When the choice is deal drugs or simply not make enough to survive there really isn't much of a choice.
With the number of overturned sentences coming out of the courts lately, yes, it seems you can go to jail without ever having actually committed a crime.
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