> If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese.
That goes for a lot of countries, especially if your skin color is different as well as your accent, language and whatnot. Heck, even when you are born in a country where you are not the same skin color as the majority you can feel not welcome. So, it's kind of a generalization to say that only about Japan.
>A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.
I think where we disagree is that I think that this is not an absolute, but depends on a) what people, and b) under what circumstances and for what reasons they assume you're X.
If it's only strangers that assume that, and because it's more or less statistically sound to assume it (that has nothing to do with you specifically) then
E.g. if people assume I'm a jerk for wearing some t-shirt message, but only because they don't know me and don't know I wear it ironically, then it wouldn't make me feel like perhaps I'm a jerk -- just that they don't know me and/or they don't get the joke. If on the other hand people I know imply that I'm a jerk, that would actually hurt me.
But maybe all this is over-analysing (well, not maybe, it is).
In a sense, someone living in Japan who is not Japanese, it is indeed a foreigner. Unlike the US or UK, etc, Japan is an ethnically cohesive society -- most of them are not just born there AND raised there, but also of Japanese ethnicity for millennia. So it makes sense not to consider a caucasian who lives there even 20 or 30 years as Japanese. But the key is probably whether they feel welcome.
> You will never be completely trusted as a foreigner in Japan, nor will you ever completely fit in.
In my experience this is not really true (though if you read it literally, then it is ;-) ). If you speak, read, write and act like a Japanese person, then people will treat you as if you are Japanese. You will fit in. There are racist people in Japan, but not any more than I've seen in any other country. Japanese culture being what it is, you also won't really experience blatant racism out in the open even if you meet racists.
Having said that, attitudes are much different in the big city than the countryside. When I go to Tokyo or Osaka, everyone initially expects me to be a tourist. When I'm at home in rural Shizuoka, everyone expects that I live there (because there aren't a lot of foreign tourists). But even in Tokyo or Osaka after talking to someone for more than about 10 seconds they know that I live permanently in Japan and treat me that way.
My Japanese is not even that good (although I am very fluent in the areas where I have fluency). I rarely make social mistakes any more and people treat me just like they treat everyone else. I fit in here more than I fit in anywhere else in the world.
If you have difficulty fitting in, then it's likely that you're missing some nuance. Since nobody spells it out for you, it's definitely hard to figure out, but not impossible. You just need to watch what other people do in that situation and then start doing the same thing. The other main thing is to feel OK about being Japanese -- which a lot of foreigners don't in my estimation.
> Racism and discrimination aren't just reserved to the color of skin, it's often built around whole ancestries of groups and their traditional social standings.
Indeed, but this exists everywhere. Why would this factor be unusually influential in Japan?
> What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason
A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.
Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.
It’s actually worse for Asian non-Japanese cultures. You’re basically expected to stay in the circle of your culture, whether you like it or not. For non-Asians, it’s easier for them to be distinguished visually, of course, but at least Japanese people are not likely to have hostile emotions on them..
I would consider it weirdly arrogant to go to Japan and then have them ever accept me as 'Japanese'. I would hope that thy are respectful to me, and treat me well, and maybe even 'as a Japanese' but not actually 'Japanese', because - I'm not!
There's a big difference I think between 'rights' and 'cultural attribution', we mix them up a lot in the West.
> If you aren't obviously east Asian you get the opposite treatment. You'll constantly be complimented on your ability to do basic things like pick up food with chopsticks and the ability to say hello. If you can have a conversation, there will be constant "compliments" on it. It gets annoying very quickly.
Americans find a lot of things like this incomprehensible and annoying, but if you're British you'll be right at home. Japanese people are just Asian English people.
(This also explains why they're train otakus, the way other countries only like their nerdier TV shows, and the occasional colonization.)
>The inside/outside issue is really the key. Everybody is an outsider in some context. Understanding your place and whether or not you are inside or outside is critical. If you want to be inside, you also need to follow the inside rules -- even if you don't agree with them. In my experience, this is where people get into troubles. If you say, "Hey, I don't agree with that, I don't want to do it" the response is universally, "OK. There is absolutely no problem with that. You are outside."
>In short, there is no problem getting inside, but you actually need to want to be inside -- not one foot in and one foot out. If you want to be accepted as Japanese, then you have to be Japanese. Most immigrants do not actually want this for some reason.
This is interesting, as it contrasts with the fact that I can disagree with the majority about how things should be done in my own country (and act accordingly) without risking the insider status.
I read that, and having never been or lived in Japan, I thought it was an odd statement to make, though I'm half-chinese, so I have some idea how important 'face' and 'shame' is in some societies. Hoping that OP reads this and your last sentence.
> especially when they will see that you speak japanese and that you re not a tourist
I've read this many times before that Japanese love a tourist but when they learn you're a resident somehow they turn on you. Not once seen this happen or heard of an incident of it happening to anyone I know.
> There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race."
Oh Japanese definitely think they are apart from their neighbors even in terms of race. YOu should read what Japanese write about themselves in History books.
Based on my experience visiting Japan and talking to both expats and expat-friendly locals there, I think the issue is more cultural than political. If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese.
Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate socially based on someone's looks or origins...
> heredity and skin color most definitely has something to do with the japanese ethnicity.
Only to racists. Just as being Jewish is an ethnicity (as well as a religion), you don't have to be white or have Jewish parents to be of Jewish ethnicity.
More and more Japanese Nationals with mixed race are born all the time, and raised completely in Japan and only speak Japanese, yet would "pass as white."
And when they're famous and appear in the media, they are considered by most of the Japanese audience to be ethnically Japanese.
On the other hand, there are quite a few Japanese-Americans whose parents are both racially "100%" Japanese, yet because they speak awful or nonexistent Japanese and or "act American" or "have American values", are not considered to be ethnically Japanese.
>Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".
No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking.
What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.
>Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders.
That's her culture and nationality (and even the culture part could be dual). They refer to her ethnicity and ancestry.
I am a white guy living in the rural Japan. I can tell you lots of stories of other expat white people accusing me of being a "Japan-o-phile" (apparently a bad thing) because I adopted a Japanese way of life. People have often warned me that "they [the Japanese people] will never accept you" and "you know you will never be Japanese". I get far more racism from these expats who feel betrayed that I have happily integrated into Japanese society than I ever have from Japanese people.
Racism exists everywhere. Living in Japan has been the first place where I've lived as a visible minority and it has been an eye opener. Being obviously different is hard in many ways. There are people who stare at you, or people who wonder if/how you are different from them. There are people who are afraid of you for no reason other than you are different. Very occasionally there are people who are abusive and rude, but most of the time it is mostly a mixture of ignorance and curiosity (and maybe a little bit of fear of the unknown thrown in).
It can be quite a problem for some people. Many people take offence at practically anything and can't let anything slide. They feel it is morally wrong not to take a stand about being treated differently. They feel you are morally wrong if you happily agree to be treated differently.
For me, probably like a lot of people who read HN, I have always been different. I have never fit in anywhere. Even though I was visibly the same as everyone, my way of thinking, my religious beliefs, my values have always been different from the norm. I suffered greatly in countries where everyone assumed that I was the same as them. As a visible minority, I am free to be different. It makes me happy even if sometimes it causes problems.
"Expats in Japan frequently question why I would live in rural Japan with people who don't look [and by extension, think] like me", would be a true statement for me. In my opinion this is likely true of any visible minority population anywhere. It definitely hurts me and I suspect it hurts the author as well, which is probably why he wrote about it in that way.
People trying to assimilate in Japan... most of them will always remain foreigners in the eyes of their new country and fellow citizens. No matter what they do. Simply because they don’t look the part.
Regarding their attitude towards people from other Asian countries. Well, let’s just say I’m glad to have lived there as a white kid.
However it’s true; in Japan you’ll rarely, if not never, face any outwards violence or hostility as a foreigner.
But, let’s be honest: you’ll rarely face any sincere and authentic outwards anything ¯\_(?)_/¯
I think the poster making a sweeping generalization on such a large group of people is poor form.
My opinion, based on living in Japan and spending a lot of time around Japanese people, is the generalizations likely applies to a large portion of the population, but I have doubts whether it even applies to the majority.
That goes for a lot of countries, especially if your skin color is different as well as your accent, language and whatnot. Heck, even when you are born in a country where you are not the same skin color as the majority you can feel not welcome. So, it's kind of a generalization to say that only about Japan.
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