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>But right and wrong are very subjective things

is "the earth is flat" a subjective wrong ? is "climate changes unless you change" a subjective wrong ? is "poverty" a subjective wrong ? is "education is important" a subjective right ? is "rules of law" a subjective wrong ? is "same gender, same pay" a subjective right ?



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Right and wrong are subjective to humans.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by subjective.

I assert that, for many (though possibly not all) moral questions, that there is a fact of the matter as to whether a thing is good or bad or neither.


Hah, this made me laugh and think for a moment. Personally, I'm not sure that right and wrong are subjective, but I'm also quite careful about saying there's an objective right and wrong. Objective right and wrong can certainly lead away from "live and let live", and who arbitrates this objective morality when people disagree?

So, funny phrasing and thought provoking way of putting it. After some reflection, I think I'd press you to define right and wrong before answering if you hit me up with that.


> right and wrong (well outside real moral issues)

Even moral issues don't have objective right and wrong. The idea that there are base moral facts is ridiculous, and without fully understanding each others priors arguments about ethics are rarely productive.


If everything is subjective, we lose all sense of right and wrong.

> What constitutes well-being is open to debate

> actions that decrease a creatures well-being can be thought of as objectively wrong

Which results in the "rightness" and "wrongness" of those actions being open to debate, and therefore subjective.

> I base my morality on the well-being of conscious creatures.

Same as my moral compass. But I don't pretend that my definition of "well-being" is objectively correct and universal.


You're conflating the rather abstract and arguably subjective moral concepts of "right" and "wrong" with "true" and "false."

I think you are confusing whether people agree on right and wrong with whether their is an objective right and wrong. It's entirely possible that there is an objective right and wrong but that some people are mistaken as to what it is.

> derive insight about why some things are ethically right and some aren't

What exactly "ethically right" means is subjective.

> you're dismissing a whole branch of philosophy

Yes, and it's not the only branch I dismiss :-)

> but there are other approaches to understanding morality

For example? My problem with ethical systems is that they're built on a subjective feelings of rightness and wrongness.


But subjectiveness applies to everything. For instance, whether or not something is moral is subjective, and yet there is a collective notion of morality.

The whole point of morality is that it is subjective. You can not determine what is right as a rule.

>Morality is not subjective.

You make a fact-like statement for what is actually one of the most debated arguments in philosophical history. I disagree, morality is subjective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism


You are confusing morality, which is indeed be subjective and relative in many cases, to objective truths, which are by definition objective.

> In addition, while it is true that judgements of value cannot be reduced to judgements of facts (i.e. the "is-ought problem"), one must acknowledge that judgements of value must be based upon judgements of fact. If you're basing your values upon incorrect facts, your values are very likely to be mistaken. For example, if you state that another person is not deserving of moral consideration, that is a judgement of value which may or may not be valid. However, if your justification for that judgement is hearsay evidence or religious bias, then that judgement starts to look very shaky.

You've committed the same error. One ramification of the is-ought divide is that ultimately, ethical norms are assertions divorced from empirical basis. Saying that 'murder is wrong' is epistemologically very similar whether it is based on some religious text or something like "what would society be like if we allowed people to murder each other?". It is simply expressing a preference for one empirical state over another empirical state, and absent some transcendental determinant, no final conclusion can decisively be reached.


>Statements of oughts are values not truths.

I think values (in this context) are truths! It's an idea that seems strange at first, and I think that if you asked people on the street, they would probably say indeed that ought-statements aren't objectively true, just matters of opinion or something like that. But I think this is wrong.

But to be sure, what I've been saying is that the claim that "We ought to reproduce as our primary purpose" is true is incorrect. If you don't think ought a statements are truths, then there's actually no disagreement here, you don't think it's true either.

But I think ought-statements can be true. "Spinach is yucky" is a kind of statement that isn't a truth and isn't really true or false---it's just a matter of opinion. But I think that this is fundamentally different from, for example, "The earth revolves around the sun". The latter case is independent of what people believe or what kind of feelings they have about the roundness of the earth---not so for the first case. Now consider " We ought not hold slaves." Is this statement more like "Spinach is yucky" or "The earth revolves around the sun"? There was a time where most people would have disagreed with "We ought not hold slaves". They would have even said it's traditional, it's economically necessary, etc. But all that has no bearing on this statement. Slavery is wrong and has always been wrong - even when it was traditional, when most people held slaves, etc. Because morals aren't just claims about what's traditional or conducive to reproduction. Just like "the earth revolves around the sun", tradition and evolution and psychology don't affect the truth of this statement---it is simply true.


> One must also believe that more than one set of morals can be right or that no one is right or wrong.

Exactly. There is no universal right or wrong, it's all relative based on hierarchical system of values in every society.


Sure, but all meaning and interpretation of life, all ideas on what is right, and so on, are subjective. There is nothing wrong with that, since it's not like objectivity actually exists on the other side of the scale. When it comes to moral questions, what is "objectively right" simply doesn't apply, and isn't needed.

If everybody simply stuck to treating others how they would want to be treated, we'd live in a much better world already, even if it wasn't "perfect", and even if there were disagreements, and it all still always subject to constant learning and reflection.

Our main problems don't stem from out confusion about what we think is right (and by "we" I mean each of us as the individuals that actually exist, not as a collective abstraction), but from wanting what we think is right for ourselves, while having double standards for others, and rationalizations for those.


The thing is, "good for the world" is a subjective notion.

In my studies of philosophy I am yet to find any system of ethics that provides an objective and universal definition of right and wrong - if you find one, please let me know.

Until then, we are all dealing with subjective opinions - it's just that some opinions are more popular than others. In democracy the most popular opinion wins, but this does not imply that an opinion is objectively "right" (as we know from history).

Hence, I find this recent trend where people classify other people's beliefs as "objectively wrong" - with no consideration for the subjectivity of their own beliefs - to be deeply troubling. Such behaviour is a departure from reason; only dogma remains.


Everyone acts per their interest. Right and wrong is subjective.
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