>We don't need to eat meat or fish at all to be healthy
Bollocks! Meat is one of the healthiest and nutritionally rich sources of food available! Toxic transfat is made from polyunsaturated vegetable oils, and diabetes causing sugars is from grains and high sugar plants! The easiest weight loss in the world is a meat based, 70% kcal from animal fat, minimal vegetable, zero carb diet: lost 80 lbs/yr myself on it without an extra step taken to exercise. Just sat on my @ss and lost the weight! Veganism as healthy is a big fat unhealthy meme!
> I'm currently on a high fat, medium protein, 0 carb diet. It isn't environmentally friendly, but the weight falls off and I feel great.
Your personal experience is not statistically significant. There is overwhelming scientific consensus that a plant-based, whole food, vegan diet is optimal for human health. Okinawan and Seventh-Day Adventist in California diets are two frequently cited examples.
> The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc.
> the typical meat based, western diet is strongly linked to all of our most deadly diseases
The standard American diet is composed of 70% plant-based foods, which is the same ratio found in the Mediterranean diet which is lauded as one of the most healthful.
It's not the meat that's causing the issues, it's the processed plant foods and plant-derived oils that destroy one's health on a western diet. Or in other words, the horrible food quality. Any diet that doesn't include processed plant foods and oils will be an improvement from one that does, regardless of whether it includes meat.
> And vegan/vegetarian diets are notoriously high in carbohydrates and low in fat and protein. Not necessarily a great recipe for wellness.
Please cite a reputable source for this outlandish claim. You can check my post history for some links to non-profit health organizations such as WHO, which recommend the majority of caloric intake to come from carbohydrates, and to limit fat/protein intake to 15% or less each.
> It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.
- Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is the largest group of professional nutritionist in the world. People putting doubt that plant-only diets can be healthy are showing the same level of anti-science that climate change deniers are.
The paper goes on to say that having a plant based diet reduces risks of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and obesity. A vegan diet is one of the most healthy diets an individual can choose when measured by the health outcomes of people that choose the diet.
>So yes, it is theoretically possible to eat complete and healthy without meat. It's also theoretically possible to put 3 chop sticks on top of each other, put them on your head and walk like that to your super market. That doesn't mean you can do it, by adding some beans and nuts to your diet. It's so complicated that some doctors think they can't do it for a long time to themselves.
This is such FUD nonsense; pretty deplorable on this forum. There's nothing theoretical about eating "complete and healthy without meat" - people have been living on vegan and vegetarian diets for centuries without ill effects. People have become bodybuilders, MMA fighters while being vegan too, not that the vast majority of humans need to measure their diets by those of elite athletes.
As for "so complicated" here is the American Dietetic Association:
>It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
NHS UK
"A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age."
British Dietetic Association
"[I]t is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding."
> Meat is a package of pre-processed vitamins, minerals and energy sources.
In addition to saturated fats, cholesterol, and common additives like nitrates and preservatives, meat consumption can also entail exposure to antibiotics, hormones, bioaccumulated pesticides and herbicides, and ethical concerns related to cruelty and mistreatment in the meat production industry.
> Other than health, taste, tradition, habit and convenience, what has meat ever done for us?
If everyone on Earth adopted the American or European diet, we would require more than five Earths to feed everyone [0]. Animal agriculture is already the leading cause of deforestation [1], biodiversity loss [2] [3], and water pollution [4]. Our current agricultural practices are pushing over a million species towards extinction [5].
Switching to plant-based diets could free up an area equivalent to the combined size of both Americas [6], allowing us to reforest it and promote biodiversity recovery. By reforesting this vast area, we could sequester enough carbon to potentially reverse climate change [7] [8] (assuming a simultaneous phase-out of fossil fuels, of course) [9].
This approach represents the only sustainable way to feed a population of 10 billion [10] while reducing our agricultural land requirements from 4 billion hectares to 1 billion hectares [11]. Animal agriculture is one of the major culprits pushing six out of nine Earth boundaries beyond safe levels [12] [13].
> You're assuming a meat-based diet is automatically healthy
I'm asserting that it's harder to be nutrient deficient given a meat/fish-based diet. The only "work" in this diet is not eating too much.
> western diet is strongly linked to all of our most deadly diseases
Mostly due to overconsumption, not due to the composition of the diet. Controlling for caloric intake eliminates most differences in health outcomes between the various diets, assuming no nutrient deficiencies are present.
Dr. Tong said: "Well-balanced and predominantly plant-based diets can result in improved nutrient levels and have been linked to lower risks of diseases including heart disease and diabetes.
> Why can't someone get as fat and unhealthy with a vegan diet?
Don’t know about “unhealthy”, but “fat” is actually less likely, according to a research:
“our results suggest that self-identified semivegetarian, lactovegetarian, and vegan women have a lower risk of overweight and obesity than do omnivorous women. The advice to consume more plant foods and less animal products may help individuals control their weight.”
> Plus you don't even have to go fully vegetarian, purely just reduce meat intake and up vegetable/bean/nut intake.
Echoing this. Also, Mediterranean diet is still the best diet if not based on current nutritional trends, but also anecdotal evidence (The most places with the highest life expectancies are clustered around the Mediterranean)
> Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements.
> I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it?
For better or worse, it's very easy to end up eating a caloric deficit on a plant-based diet. I'm very glad I use a kitchen scale and small script I wrote to calculate how much kcal/protein/carbs/fat I'm actually getting in comparison to what I should be getting. To put it mildly, plant-based diets take some getting used to.
Protein is important, but beyond 1.4-1.6 grams of protein per kg body weight, your body increasingly relieves itself of any excess. Particularly if you stick to eating low-fat legumes, grains and greens per Esselstyn [1], getting enough protein isn't a concern. In fact, I have to consciously choose low protein foods like potatoes and rice just to ensure I don't get too much protein.
He backs up all his claims with extensive citations from recent, peer reviewed studies. The link between meat and heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer is very well established now.
Anecdotally, keto diet did absolutely nothing for me except make me feel even worse, whereas I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in mood and health after three weeks of a purely plant based diet.
> There is no clinical evidence that the carnivore diet provides any health benefits. Dietitians dismiss the carnivore diet as an extreme fad diet, which has attracted criticism from dietitians and physicians as being potentially dangerous to health[1]
> By completely eliminating fruits, vegetables, whole grains and plant-based proteins, diets like these simply can’t provide consumers with the nutrient-dense pattern of eating associated with health benefits — including decreased all-cause mortality, heart disease, overweight and obesity, type 2 diabetes, and some cancers. In fact, dietary patterns characterized by high intakes of red meat are associated with detrimental health outcomes.[2]
> Cutting them out feels like cutting half of the nutrients out of my diet. I wouldn't risk it unless I had very extensive knowledge and dedication to human dietary requirements and what which plants can provide, which I don't have and won't have.
Yea, this is pretty common (as many comments above yours will also attest to). “Vegetarian” and “vegan” are awful diet plans, in that they only tell you what not to eat. People coming from a standard diets based around meat/cheese/eggs undoubtedly have a hard time, and often become sick.
Fortunately, you don’t need that much knowledge. This stuff has been figured out by dietitians. If you’re interested in what a plant-based diet could look like, check out nutritionfacts.org. Dr. Greger has a “daily dozen” checklist that will pretty easily get you to a very healthy diet. It includes: cruciferous vegetables, other vegetables, whole grains, flax, berries, other fruits, spices (turmeric, cinnamon, garlic, etc), greens, nuts/seeds, beans/legumes, water, and exercise. If you consistently knock all 12 of those out, you’ll be healthy as a horse.
Bollocks! Meat is one of the healthiest and nutritionally rich sources of food available! Toxic transfat is made from polyunsaturated vegetable oils, and diabetes causing sugars is from grains and high sugar plants! The easiest weight loss in the world is a meat based, 70% kcal from animal fat, minimal vegetable, zero carb diet: lost 80 lbs/yr myself on it without an extra step taken to exercise. Just sat on my @ss and lost the weight! Veganism as healthy is a big fat unhealthy meme!
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