Well, the UK in general and London in particular are particularly bad, because income (outside banking) is very so-so-ish, cost of living (not just housing, but that in particular) spectacularly high and quality of life (again, housing, commutes, infrastructure, etc.) not so spectacular.
Berlin may have comparable salaries (for me it was actually better, but that was probably specific circumstances), but cost of living is dramatically lower and quality of life dramatically better.
Based on what I have heard from friends in London and Germany salaries are actually a lot better in Germany. Especially once you account for cost of living.
Just pure salary comparison isn't enough though. London has crazy living costs, and Berlin's response is the heavy taxation (about 40%-45% including the compulsory health insurance).
I know living costs are "enormous". But if you make 3 times more money as you'd do in Berlin, it's still a much better deal.
The point I was making even in top cities in Germany (Munich for example) where living costs are also enormous, salaries are not very competitive compared to SF/NY or London (this only applies to contracting, permanent salaries are low in London).
come to Berlin, nothing of what you say applies there imo. Salaries might be substantially lower than in SV, but it's also far far cheaper. Eg. as a Senior 70-90k EUR is realistic in Berlin (without management), allowing you a very good quality of live in a city that is nowhere near SV/London in terms of rent and many other expenses.
I started the comment saying that salaries in Germany are approaching those of London. Probably Berlin is still slightly below, but I think Hamburg have completed the catch-up.
Later I wrote that you get a better lifestyle in Germany with 60K€ than in London with 90K£.
Having lived in Berlin for ten years, I can say with certainty that wages there are less than half equivalents in our industry in the US, and income taxes are much higher. Cost of living in some places, like Berlin, is lower (for now), but that only matters if you intend to be a low income earner over your career. I would rather have 50% higher expenses and 100-300% higher income, myself.
There’s more to lifelong financial planning than “can I afford house payments?”.
You mean London and Switzerland. Excepting London, the UK on average is even more low wage than Germany, to reuse your expression. But London, just like Switzerland has an impossible property market if you want o buy something no matter how well you're paid.
It depends, there is no student loan debt, no healthcare debt, and you won't be homeless if shit hits the fan, so we got that going over what's happening across the pond. On the flip side, you get robbed a bit at the salary takeout.
It would be nice if it wasn't mostly middle class that gets fleeced though, and it would also lovely if more money would flow into keeping infrastructure intact, like schools. But again, that's Berlin for ya.
I'd go as far as claiming Berlin is a very low paid place in Europe. Living costs and standards are quite low here compared to Munich or Amsterdam. You'd earn 50% more there for the same work.
Maybe if you just look at gross numbers. It's the old GDP vs happiness as an index for a country's rank debate.
I worked for a multi-national in Berlin; heading a team of 40 internals and another 40 externals, the latter mostly in Ukraine.
As a director I saw the salaries of everyone working under other directors under the same VP. Including the teams in Chicago and San Diego. Salaries were maybe 10-15% lower in Berlin.
We regularly swapped developers around. Usually for six months. People from both CA & IL that came to live in Berlin with their families were always overwhelmed about quality of life in here. Particularly the food. Well, then they fly to Italy over the weekend (affordable, with their spouse & kids, mind you) and they are completely blown away.
If you look at net salary and what it buys you, quality of life, quality of food, healthcare, rent, 20 days/y of paid holidays (+12 paid public holidays in Berlin, more if you live in a state with a Catholic majority ofc.), 6 months (unpaid) unconditional sabbatical after you complete five years with that company, job security because of German laws. The list goes on.
On these measures the US sucks compared to most of Europe. Compared to Germany for sure.
I pay 1,250 EUR/month for a bright, 1075 sqft apartment in the very center of Berlin. The city surely is one of the cheapest capitals in Europe but still.
From my friends in SF or Boston who work in tech, earn more (gross) than me and who visit me from time to time I always hear they're jealous about the quality of life we have here.
I was an expat for 15 years working in India, Australia, Asia and the UK. During the last five years I was on business trips to the US every 2-3 months. Affordable food sucks, good food will cost you $$$ and you can't get it just in any supermarket like here.
I have only one body. What do I care if I make 30% more and live 10 years less to enjoy it?
Being back on the continent for another decade now I know I made the right decision. The only country I lived in with comparable quality of life in many aspects (and even better health care) is Japan.
Finally, in software location is a non issue when you want to start a business. You can shop for money anywhere and you can set up the business where it is convenient, e.g. for tax reasons or access to investors.
I had a software company in Hong Kong seven years ago. I was in Europe most of the time. The team was from all over the planet.
My experience is that if investors want to meet f2f they actually love if you're in Europe as they have an excuse to fly there and meet you.
One of my best friends who's Mexican co-heads a big home delivery SaaS that is growing at crazy pace. He bought a flat here. His workplace is a modest desk in a rather mediocre co-working space in the center of Berlin.
He also bought a flat in Austin, TX. But he only goes there maybe for one month/year. Because ... quality of life. It trumps salaries every time ... if you have understood what it truly means to be human.
I think this is a very good summary. The number on your paycheck is not representative of how good your quality of life is. You can almost never compare salaries 1:1 even in different cities of the same country. It was mentioned on this thread as well, but €60k in rural Germany, €80k in Berlin and €120k in Munich are quite similar in terms of what you get, cost of property/land and stuff. All 3 are basically very much upper middle class in those regions.
Berlin is the worst place if you want to have a good paying job. If you only want to work for startups, then Berlin is the place to go. But if you are open to work in Big Enterprise IT, then there are many places where you can work and earn very good salaries (especially Frankfurt, Munich, Hamburg where Enterprise IT usually pays between 80k$-140k$ depending on your role). While taxes and contributions for singles are quite high, it also includes health insurance, retirement money and unemployment insurance. For food, Germany is one of the cheapest places in the world. Property taxes are REALLY low compared to the US (I mean, in the US or in Germany, you as a renter pay them, so rent is also cheaper here, even in the hubs). In big cities, many people do not need a car as public transportation is very affordable and available everywhere (so that money gets saved for some).
The biggest challenge: to stay here for longer, try to learn German well. It is not that difficult if you take your time.
I’ve just moved to Berlin to look for software development work, and it’s nowhere near as bad as you are portraying.
Lower than the USA, yes; but even junior software roles are well above “wage slavery”. Housing and medical insurance are both much cheaper here (also food, but food is so cheap generally that it being cheaper here doesn’t make much difference, unlike rent and insurance).
Berlin may have comparable salaries (for me it was actually better, but that was probably specific circumstances), but cost of living is dramatically lower and quality of life dramatically better.
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