Because meat tastes better, and I want it. If I can have that taste without an animal involved then it’s all the better. If not then I’ll continue eating meat.

Vegetarians and vegans just don’t seem to understand this. Food is all about personal preference but the extreme majority of people eat and enjoy meat. They enjoy it because they find it delicious. If people felt vegetarian options were as delicious as meat we wouldn’t be having these discussions.

People who don’t have a taste preference for meat are obviously not the target for plant based meat.

This is exactly why plant-based substitutes for meat are so important. I'm a vegan, but I don't think the majority of human beings will ever be convinced to adopt a plant-based diet on ethical grounds. That's a completely hopeless cause. The only way is for plant-based versions of the foods meat eaters love to be 1) indistinguishable or better tasting 2) as cheap or cheaper. In the end, most people value convenience and their own experience over ethics and the experience of others (and I'm not saying I'm better than you or anyone else—I'm the same, just not on this particular issue), so I think the right approach is to make plant-based foods the most convenient and enjoyable experience. It may be far away, but it will happen eventually.

The thing about meat is that it tastes good

>Though I always wondered if the animal rights type of vegetarians eat this stuff

Some don't like it, but I do. As long as it resembles processed meat instead of intact animal parts (like chicken wings, for example), I'm not bothered by it at all. It might as well be any other processed plant-based food to me.

Being a vegetarian myself, I'd say most are. But as with so many things, there are always a few people who have to crank their righteousness to 13.

I don't artificial meat because they're not the healthiest choice. Too much processing going on there. I do make my own my own vegetarian burgers, though. At least I know what's going into them.

I’ve been “vegan” for the better half of a decade and I don’t think this is confusing at all: because it’s familiar and it tastes good.

Familiarity and tastes can change over time, but it takes time and effort, and people are already putting effort into being open-minded when they try a veggie burger instead of a beef burger.

Sure, a quinoa salad might be healthier, but most people aren’t choosing between a cheeseburger and some ultra-healthy vegan cuisine.

We should aim to make these choices easy and comfortable instead of criticizing folks for taking baby steps in the right direction.

Just my two cents.

So go vegan. Have a look at Cowspiracy for example. Our meat consumption is killing our habitat on this planet.

> > About half of US soy is produced for animal feed[1]. I think worldwide this number is much higher (US imports feed). Also land use for animal farming (including what they need for growing feed) is HUMONGOUS compared to the land needed to feed a human on a plant-based diet.

> This is a really good point, though I really wished I used a different example because my main point was that many veggies and vegans don't really care about the big picture so long as they can convince themselves their conscious is clean.

How do you know? I say it's BS as the vegans I know are making a daily effort to improve the shituation, while omnis keep coming with lame excuses.

> They're the people in the Trolley Car Problem who would never push a large person onto the tracks to save five other people, but if you gave them a button that served the same function then they would go ahead and push that.

laughs Sorry man, not even replying to this. Any research to back this statement up? I guess nah.

> It is, of course, the same cognitive dissonance that allows factory farming to continue since plenty of people admit they could never kill a cow while munching on a burger. Just a few layers of abstraction give people peace of mind and technology enables people to hide behind more layers every day.

Yes. And it is the vegans that are the exception here. I picked fruit! I pulled a cabbage from soil. I would never like to kill an animal, not even when it give me taste pleasure.

> > Lab grown meat is going to make the discussion very pure. > > If we can provide the same experience/conveinience without the animals suffering, then what sick fuck would still pay for animal-based product?

> Probably any "sick fuck" who doesn't have the means to spend half their paycheck on lab-grown protein sources

I forgot to say that the price-at-shop is same of cheaper for the faux meat. So that what I mean by a pure discussion: we have the same-price-same-experience right here, why buy cruelty?

> > Going non-factory-farmed hugely increases the resource consumption for a pieces of meat. I thought you were concerned with resource consumption?

> One assumption [...] it's a race.

Are you concerned with resource consumption or not? If yes: do your research and go (mostly) vegan. Why wait for it to be to expensive for you to pay for?

> My main point in all this was to try to get people to think twice about just lauding lab meat without considering the potential issues. I'm not going to continue here because I try to maintain a policy of not h

Without substantial foundation that's called F.U.D.

> Having emotional conversations with people I can't look in the eye and you are obviously quite passionate about this.

So what. Yes I try to make a difference. My passion is not the point here.

> Again, I appreciate the thoughtful and well-researched response

Thanks for noticing. :)

> though I find it noteworthy that neither you, nor anyone else that responded, seemed to address the actual comparison of resources for lab grown meat vs nature grown meat.

Because it is still a question mark. It has all the potential to be much more sustainable. That's why Gates/Branson/etc are investing in this: they know we need to live more sustainable or die as a species. It is not a choice at this point.

> We're not using technology to become more moral or ethical, we're using it to become lazier and more complacent.

The ethical impact of this tech is a side-effect. The ones investing are simply looking to make money. That we cannot grow further with our livestock numbers is primarily an economic factor for the investors. It just happens to line up at this point.

> The same attitude that allows people to eat meat without caring about the conditions under which it was made isn't going to change when lab meat becomes available...

Says who? At the same price/experience it has the potential to make a huge difference! I know loads of peeps who'd switch (or pretty much have switch since the alternative are good enough for them). They do not need to re-learn cooking, just pick the other "meat" and do as you always do.

> which means that if companies that make lab meat DO end up having to cut costs by killing some other ecosystem, they probably won't care about that either.

Srsly. Where do you get this from? What ecosystem are you talking about?

Not the ecosystems in the forests that where cut for animal agriculture of the GMO soy/corn field to feed them...

Get a grip man. You're chasing ghosts.

> For me, whether you eat meat or veggies doesn't determine how ethical you are as a person

For me it does because, in your own words:

> it's how much energy you're actually willing to spend on giving a shit about how your actions affect others.

And going vegan is an effort, try it, and you save many animals by doing so. That industry is so ugly you would not be able to swallow that piece of corpse when you had to look at movies showing its practices.

I really wish for you to try to consume cruelty free, you seem to have the capacity to understand it will help (though still trying to deny it with --in my opinion-- highly convoluted reasoning).

I'm not sure what you base this statement on. There are many people whose initial motivations for going vegan were ethical, either to avoid funding animal abuse, environmental degradation, or both.

That was why I went vegan 23.5 years ago, and why I'm still vegan. I eat mock meat and non-dairy cheese because these taste like foods I liked before I went vegan. I didn't stop eating meat and cheese because I thought it tasted bad! I loved it, but I hate what went into its production. Now I can have the foods I like without the negative externalities. That's perfect!

That said, my palette has expanded hugely since I first went vegetarian, and I also enjoy all sorts of things I used to really dislike, including more whole foods type dishes, and even raw food.

I've been vegan for years and I wish people wouldn't take this position publicly.

I agree with you, but it's more effective to have lots of people consuming fewer animal products than a few people cutting out animal products "100%". (Of course it's never 100%, that'd be impossible unless you left society.)

Let's be optimistic about the amount of change that normal people can do instead of chastising allies for not doing enough.

I've always preferred "thats not food, that's what food eats." I don't see how fake meat is going to solve a gap in senses of humor though.

> Sometimes you want to make one of the many dishes you grew up with, but you want to live consistently with your ethics, so you want a simple replacement.

I would be quite interested in hearing a consistent and rigorous herbivore ethical system. All of the herbivores I've personally encountered mistake their emotional revulsion for an ethos. But, in all charity, I can at least imagine the existence of a consistent ethos one might hold with respect abstention. In fact, there's one that's part of my faith tradition, but it's considered an exceptional penance and not a moral obligation. Somehow I don't think that's your motivation though. If it is a penitential act though, then you have my sincere admiration. That said, eating highly processed food science experiments that we have no actual data on the long term effects of consumption of is inconsistent with my ethics. Naturally, that is orthogonal to eating a complete diet that's as consistent as possible given practical constraints with what H. Sapiens evolved to eat. Incidentally that's the basis of my ethos with regard to food: I want to eat what my body is best able to use.

> Sometimes you want something that freezes easily so that when you've had a long and stressful day you have something quick and easy to reach for.

I don't understand this, I've never had trouble freezing the vegetarian dishes that I've made.

> Most meat-eaters don't make hamburgers a "major part of their diet" -- and most vegetarians/vegans don't make veggie burgers a "major part" of theirs either. But as an occasional thing, it's very useful to have these meat substitutes, for a variety of reasons. You don't have to eat them for every meal in order to find them useful.

I certainly agree that even eating supermarket meats it's hard to eat a complete diet. Organ meat is basically impossible to find in your average supermarket, but it's of vital importance for getting nutritionally available dietary micronutrients. I'm sure that you know, as an educated herbivore, that it's considerably more difficult to get bioavailable micronutrients from plants due to our digestive system not being evolved to process phytates. Fortunately thanks to human ingenuity there are some workarounds, like fermentation and other forms of processing that neutralize the natural defensive poisons that plants produce. Because, believe it or not, just like animals plants also prefer not to be eaten!

Sure, you are married to a vegan and learned to appreciate the taste. In the same way, I enjoy a level of Indian spices that would make an average American's eyes bulge out. But for habitual meat eaters there is nothing that really replaces the texture, the feeling of substantial satiety, reality of not being hungry again for 8 hours... To each their own?

> Normally vegetarian food costs less than meat. It's because the animals need to eat (surprise surprise) vegetables! When you eat the vegetables directly instead of having the animal eat the vegetable for your, it's cheaper.

We have herds of goats eating dry brush to prevent wildfires around here. I don't suppose you would enjoy THAT vegan dish? :-)

There are lots of reasons people want vegetarian versions of meat. Here are some of the most common:

1. Still want to eat meat, but want to reduce the environmental impact of meat production.

2. Don't want to eat meat for moral/preference reasons, but still enjoy the taste of eating it.

3. Want to eat meat, but don't like the dietary impact and want a healthier replacement.

That's already happening though. Meat eaters still don't seem to care. I'm a recent vegetarian and the food I eat now tastes better, is often more nutritious, and is easier to make.

The better alternatives are here. Oat milk! Wow! Have you tried it? I knocked vegan cheese forever because it sucked. But you know what? They are starting to make some that is better than some 'real' cheese. Indian food. Baked/BBQ tofu is amazing.

I've had veggie burgers in CA and WA that beat a 'regular' burger by a mile. Try Souley Vegan in Oakland for one. Wowza. Better than any meat burger I've ever had.

Not all vegetarian food is sustainable, I know. But it's better. I'm vegetarian for the taste more than anything really. It's not a sacrifice!

I think a lot meat eaters would be absolutely shocked at how delicious and healthy a lot of vegetarian food is now.

> Only a few will make personal sacrifice for the common good.

??? I didn't make a 'personal sacrifice' to become vegetarian. It's a literal animal sacrifice every meal the other way around! Vegetarian food isn't a sacrifice. What the world needs is to convert more to veggies is to squash the idea that becoming vegetarian means making a sacrifice.

I like meat so i'll give it a try.

If it's a choice between me eating junk food that's killing animals and earth, and eating this junkfood that is probably very slightly better for those and my health then i guess this will work.

I think there's a huge difference between following a fad diet and following a diet that is based around your feelings of reducing animal cruelty and doing a small part to combat climate change. I would agree going to a steakhouse where you know the whole business is based around serving meat is creating issues, but especially nowadays I don't think vegetarians should have to consider themselves problems. If there was less peer pressure to eat meat and more meatless options people would find it easier to reduce meat consumption also.

I'm a meat eater who's never opted for a meat substitute in my life until these options. They absolutely have started to achieve being a replacement. I don't need it to reliably pass as beef in a blind taste test, I just need it to be good while being essentially a burger. (Or whatever.)

I was never going to try a chunk of tofu no matter how many people insist that it can be great. I tried this because people say it tastes like a burger. Some people want a new experience and some people want a familiar one.

Maybe this will be a gateway item that will demystify plant-based food for me and others and make me more likely to try future products that don't mimic meat.

In Netherlands in loads of restaurant the vegetarian option will taste terrible. In recent years that's slowly changing. I often wondered why someone chose the vegetarian option, it looked and tasted terrible. It wasn't just the initial impression, everything vegetarian was bad to terrible. Plus stupidity on my part, instead of buying something nice that's vegetarian I'd try terrible meat-replacements.

To me someone eating vegetarian was someone giving up enjoying food.

IMO it's nicer to focus on the positives rather than on what someone cannot or should not do. E.g. various colleagues are now vegan. Some just because the vegan diet is better for them (more energy, sleeping, etc). That's stuff they experienced, I'm not vegan/vegetarian.

Another thing I realized is that sometimes the meat part in a dish is actually terrible. A lot of the chicken in Netherlands is sold with a huge amount of added water. It actually does not taste any good, sometimes it is not even noticeable that it is in a dish. A vegan friend was visiting, I already was doubting why I was adding chicken to a dish. Replacing the chicken resulted in a nicer dish (cauliflower with mango chutney plus loads of other spices). Since that experience that dish will at least be vegetarian.

Further, why not let people experience it? Instead of saying that they'll change, maybe say it might happen. IMO it's not that important someone completely changes their diet or never eats something. If they go from regularly eating meat to sometimes eating meat that's already a huge change.

This doesn't mean that people don't care about the horrors of the animal industry. It just means that they don't care enough to change their habits. Huge difference.

Which is why meat alternatives are so important, because they allow people to stop eating meat without changing their habits!

Neither you nor the GP really eat meat, which means that neither of you belong to the target group for this product! You are not the consumer! You clearly do not understand the whole point of these plant-based meat alternatives! Your thoughts and opinions on the product development and marketing of these are 100% irrelevant, because they're not competing for your dollars! This product is not for you.

This product is for people who want meat, who love meat, people who wants to eat greasy, tasty, juicy, meaty burgers, and who don't want to substitute that for a "delicious" salad.

> and encourage people to eat those instead

No!

First you need to develop meat alternatives so that everyone can replace most of the meat in their diets without hassle, without sacrificing anything, without changing their diet. Then you can encourage people to branch out into other vegetarian dishes, since they're actually already practically vegetarians.

I think most people dislike vegan food because vegans eat it. Not because of the food. Vegans have done a number on their appearance to the public. Most people seem to have the same experience: how do you know someone is a vegan? Don't worry they'll tell you! (and chastise you for wanting to eat a steak)

When I was in college every holiday, like clockwork, a brigade of vegans would descend on campus and hand out flyers explaining how problematic it was eating meat. You do that enough times and people just avoid anything associated with you out of spite.

Because most people find meat delicious and it fills a particular cultural niche in the United States in particular. Veggie burgers are tasty too, but if you are craving a beef burger, it's not the same thing, much like tofu is not a satisfying substitute for chicken, even if it's delicious when prepared as tofu.

You can try to change the tastes of millions or you can just make a less environmentally damaging substitute.