> Societal pressure can be even more convincing than violence.
this is true, these communities are walking on a thin rope. They are constantly in danger of falling out of balance.
> somethings not quite right with your faith. Else you would not fear independent thought.
I disagree. There is no indication that rationality and independent thinking are what is best for an individual. They have been hugely positive for humanity, but there is also freedom in submission. Being in a healthy community where you fully understand your role in life seems a lot better than being a nihilist (not the only outcome, but also not the worst one).
> Why am I judging what is acceptable for them to do in their neighborhoods and communities?
There is a nihilistic rabbit hole this can take you down. Values are suspended in air, only there because we want them to be. Why is it unacceptable for people in their own neighborhoods and communities to murder others in cold blood?
Is it all relative? Is that a choice a community can take, that is equally valid as all other choices? Or should there be a preferred community, which all humans should strive towards. A civilized platonic ideal.
I'm okay with taking the more chauvinistic view that our way of living is better. Not the best. But better. I'm willing to claim that they would be better too if they became more educated, learned to understand it's best to not kill people based on witchcraft. This does involve me thinking that I am more civilized and above them on a hierarchy of values. I'm okay with that. I think you should be too.
>If you feel you are dependent on an external human
Absolutely not, I’m a free trapper who built its own computer from scratch.
Joke apart, who is thinking really that interdependence is inherently bad? Things like symbiosis are generally connoted rather positively, aren’t there?
Now, being dependent on a group which is applying rigid rules which are systematically leading to toxic behaviors for all or part of its members, that is certainly a sound concern.
It seems to me that "independence" is a none issue: no man is an island[1]. It’s all about the way we steer our interdependence, with indefinitely many governance models we can try, but as soon a you put apart solipsism from deemed beliefs, none will honestly pretend that anyone can be absolutely independent.
> Our way of life, as it stands today, will not survive. That's not bad, just different.
What do you mean by way of life?
Even if we are only talking about supposedly purely subjective things (like fashion) or seemingly arbitrary things (like 60 hertz power), or social agreements (like driving on the right side of the road), almost everything has implications.
I reject the notion that people should punt on value judgments.
Even if you subscribe some kind of moral relativism, it is wiser to reserve judgment until you see what happens.
I don't subscribe to moral relativism. Some value systems work better than others in specific contexts.
> If you aren’t wallowing in a post-truth groupthink bubble, the world of today is really uncomfortable and lonely sometimes.
I dunno... For the most part, my close friends are too intelligent to have this tendency (likely not a coincidence, but implicit assortative matching), but I have a couple close friends and many less-close friends who aren't. It seems to bring them a lot of emotional pain and frustration.
If your worldview is effectively religious, the heretics who blaspheme against the One True Flawless Way by disagreeing with you are reduced to actively-evil monsters. If you happen to live in a modern, pluralistic society instead of Reconquista Spain, this is a recipe for constant frothing fury at the tens of millions of people who don't share any given viewpoint you may hold. To my eyes, this is wayyy more uncomfortable than always being the person disagreeing,even if minorly, with the groupthink session.
Regarding loneliness, the part of my brain that enjoys the seduction of blind, rabid group membership seems to be missing (eg I've never been a pro sports fan either, despite being a fairly avid sportsman in the past). I can understand how this would be lonely for many, but... I dunno, being a bad person is fun, I don't think that's much of an excuse for doing it.
> If you believe your system is better, then you really should not have to actively participate in fighting opposing systems of belief. Forcing it through just shows that you are motivated by self interest, and not a core belief in the superiority of your own values.
I understand your strong reaction to events in some countries in recent years, but the conclusion is both incomplete and unfair.
People can and do think... This is demonstrable, look at the good things around us in the world.
However, people can be brought very low intellectually and civically by their environment. They are vulnerable to a society that does not guarantee education and accurate information (in traditional or in modern media).
People are willing to conform, especially in exchange for food and opportunity for shelter. People are consummately manipulated by the control of the information around them.
> Some of this may just be due to incommensurable world-views. My view of the world is based on the idea that my actions may have consequences not only for me, but also for other people, and that I have some responsibility to at least consider those other people when deciding what actions I will take.
Very well then. Do whatever you think is necessary and appropriate.
> Thinking for yourself is overrated as society is not built for it if you want to fit in.
I agree that if you want to fit in, thinking for yourself is counterproductive. But I also think society has more escape hatches for unconventionally minded people than it ever has, and if you don't care about fitting in the penalties have never been lower.
> Theres a very strong tension between true beliefs and beliefs that help people/societies survive.
There is, but I think it's not about the truth value - it's about complexity. The society doesn't need to be told lies; it's just that the raw truth seems beyond what most people can handle.
Maybe it is solvable through education. A big reason why I see people having trouble with reality is that they were never taught to think in systems, and instead try to blame someone.
>They support these ideas not because of a noble goal of perfect freedom but because they are annoyed that there is a more powerful entity that gets in the way of what they want to do with/to others.
The problem with statements like this is that they are presently unfalsifiable. Even though you've stated it as fact, it's clearly only an opinion that you've arrived at based on your own perspective and experience. However, you can't prove it and nobody else can disprove it.
The general practice of extrapolating worst-possible motivation from every action is, in my opinion, one of the reasons why it's so hard to communicate rationally these days. If you envision everyone 'on the other side' of an argument as demons, maybe sub-human, why bother negotiating? Fuck 'em, maybe a meteor will strike and wipe them out or they will kill themselves off through one of their many vices.
Ironically the brain-reading capability discussed is that they might lay this bare, expose some of the incorrect asumptions and start to heal some of the relationships between cultures and people.
> Maybe the problem is that communities are weak. Imagine saying "We don't need stronger restrictions. I am OK if my kid is kidnapped as a result because the community will be stronger for it overall due to free range kids etc." You really need to care about your community to do that.
I think that's partly correct. I think the problem is due to weakened communities, but I don't think anyone, ever will think "I am OK if my kid is kidnapped b/c free range kids are good." If the community was stronger, people with more likely think things like "I am OK with my kind being free range b/c I trust the community not to kidnap and abuse them."
> I wonder if society would be better with more people avoid (or reduce to the bare minimum) reliance on others for understanding. Could be, or not.
Absolute independence leads to a breakdown in communication, understanding, and empathy. We all need to rely on one another at some point or another because these are things that keep us connected, even during the times we choose to be disconnected.
> I think maybe being with others is most pleasant when one has a healthy relationship with one's self.
I don't agree with the rest of your points, but the quoted one is key.
No studies to back this up, but I would say that you are decidedly better off being alone than being with (for lack of better word) evil people.
These are degrees of evil that seem to be tolerated but that's another topic.
In the end, it's literally all in our minds. It's technically in our control (balance of chemicals). Maybe we should devise a way to control them sentiently.
> Says the guy hypocritically from his smartphone.
How is it hypocritical? Opposed to any other times in human history you can’t give up on society and live a peaceful life in a community.
We’re born into it along with all our families and friends. Telling someone to go off and live in the woods is a life of solitude and probably harsh run ins with the law.
There is no choice nowadays and saying “ha but you live in society so you can’t critique it” is a willful ignorance.
> And to push for individualistic behavior when you think that your society is disintegrating seems to just accelerate any problems that may exists.
I don't think individualism and participation in community are necessarily at odds with one another. Communities of choice can be really powerful and meaningful in peoples' lives. I think the tricky part is figuring out how to equip young people to find and build communities in a society that no longer provides it by default.
this is true, these communities are walking on a thin rope. They are constantly in danger of falling out of balance.
> somethings not quite right with your faith. Else you would not fear independent thought.
I disagree. There is no indication that rationality and independent thinking are what is best for an individual. They have been hugely positive for humanity, but there is also freedom in submission. Being in a healthy community where you fully understand your role in life seems a lot better than being a nihilist (not the only outcome, but also not the worst one).
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