If you were a young Chinese person, why would you study in an American university?
Under normal circumstances you would want to see America. You would want to be with the best to get a bit of paper at the end from a top notch place. The world would then be your oyster. You would know people, you would know what America is like and how nice American people are (under normal circumstances).
But what happens if you know you won't be welcomed? What if you had got wind of this hysteria going on?
You go somewhere else.
It might not be America but at least you could do your degree without people muttering 'Chinese Whispers' (!) about how you are there just to harvest people's IP and steal their state organs.
If English is the language to learn then there are plenty of universities in England that will gladly take Chinese money. The hysteria hasn't sullied the atmosphere in the UK yet. Then there are Scandinavian countries, Germany and other places where you get English going on in science subjects. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada are good options too.
Then there are the non-English speaking countries that roll the red carpet out for China. Anything belt and road. Russia. There are plenty of places. Now there are options and the idea of studying in the U.S. is not really looking that exciting. Plus, the more you look into it there can be better places to get a particular degree than one of the Ivy League big names.
This could precipitate a serious decline in the international standing of U.S. universities. If departments are not getting the big bucks coming in from Chinese admissions they will have to get students from elsewhere. The bar gets lowered in the process and it becomes a downward spiral.
The only American cars of interest internationally are the ones by Tesla. Nobody wants an American car. In Europe we used to imitate American cars albeit cut down to cheap size. But, nowadays, Tesla aside, nobody in Europe would consider an American car as a serious proposition. And there isn't anything Detroit can do to change that.
If American academia gets to go in a similar downward spiral then there is no way back out of it. American universities could become the preserve of American rich kids with no intake from Asia or elsewhere. Then the ambitious U.S. students would have to be studying in Europe to get an education that was a cut above, or, even in China!
This is a slippery slope that we are on, all because of a minority that want to forego hospitality, trust, warmth and international spirit and succumb to fear, nationalism, hysteria and rumour-mongering.
there is also the fact that as seen from a lot of people in China, American universities are a way for bad students with money to get a degree they wouldn't get at Chinese universities.
A vast majority of the Chinese international students I met in college were:
Already incredibly wealthy (if you think inequality is bad in the US, you should see Shanghai or other parts of China) and had no intentions of staying in the US and were just here for education. It was extremely common to see Chinese students driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, Audis, and very often nicer cars, and it became something of a stereotype with most of the people I knew. Not to mention my university was taxpayer funded.
Also consider that Chinese people who study abroad are paying the full sticker price of a US university, so it's really not any sort of representative sample of Chinese education. Hell, paying full sticker price for a US education is a tough lift for most Americans, who have higher standard of living.
>Also, keep in mind that no matter how much you invest, studying at an American university opens the door to working in America and getting a western passport, something more and more Chinese are desperately trying to do.
I'd heard the opposite; that in recent years fewer Chinese studying in the US are staying, and that more who had stayed were returning to China, because of greater opportunities.
Didn't sound like he really wanted to study in America. That's fine, but if you don't have to do something, then it's harder to get value from it.
I studied abroad because I REALLY wanted to. I was immensely looking forward to traveling, experiencing new customs, learning new ways of thinking and even learning more than the basics of the language.
It was an experience I will value forever.
I think a big difference is that when Americans or Europeans study abroad, they are looking for an experience, when Chinese students (if this guy is to be believed) are looking to pad their resumes.
Same goes for college. If you go to college so you can put it on your resume, then you will hate it. If you go to college looking to learn, make friends and acquire skills, then it will be fantastic.
The number of Chinese students is already already in decline for various reasons [1]. It means less money for the American universities. It also means less tensions between students in the future. I don't think it's good news for the US though.
I would not agree with this. I went to an elite business school and my Chinese classmates all felt there was far more opportunity for them in China with an American education.
They’re not stupid, they look at China and see an economy growing at 6-9% a year while the US is stuck at 1-2% and they know where the growth is for the medium-term. They also see a mature American economy that can be tough to crack even for native white citizens, so its not hard to see how their chances of long-term success are much higher in China than in the US.
Also, literally every student I've met in China wants to go to the US. Undergraduates want to do their Master's there, Master's students want to do their PhD, I guess PhD students want to become professors at a US university.
Fair point. As someone who grew up here in America, I’m sure my perspective is somewhat different compared to my international student counterparts.
But based on my anecdotal experience, the majority of my international peers want to stay in the Bay Area after they graduate, or at least somewhere comparable like Seattle, New York, etc.
Also it’s not just them either, their parents also want them to stay in America. There’s a reason why they’re willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money every year to fund their children’s education here. This is true by the way for pretty much the entirety of the world, not just singling out China.
In brief; a collection of anecdotes about the rapidly increasing number of PRC students at US universities at undergraduate level, with little in the way of structure.
Interesting points; The Chinese are going everywhere, including no name horribly expensive private colleges. They often experience culture shock and find the drinking and party culture not much fun. The native USAns' social circles are heavily race stratified, the Chinese often socialise very heavily among themselves, living in houses that are all Chinese for example.
- Britain and Australia got there first with the realisation that foreign students can be conned into going to third or fourth tier universities and paying handsomely for it.
- There is enormous money in preparing and "preparing" students for going abroad.
- Interesting snippets about some universities in the article; the University of Vermont was less than 1% international student until quite recently, Northwestern either needs money or wants to expand its brand, and Columbia like Stanford has an education programme.
And over here in my university in the UK half of the students are Chinese and most of the ones that I talked with plan to continue their studies and careers here and in the US. What you claim goes both ways.
Was American science declining in the 1960s when almost no Chinese students were in American universities? Could there also be extremely smart people in Africa that might now find a place in American universities? Are there Americans that might now find a place in American Universities? I am not saying anything about visa policies, but suggesting that limiting Chinese students will hurt American science is a pretty narrow view. There is also a counter argument that many bright Chinese students go back to China, thus strengthening China. There is also another view that some Chinese students are working for or carrying the water for Beijing’s government. Students in China can’t just decide to go to the US, they have to be approved by the Chinese government and there is no doubt that such approvals require allegiance to the CCP and and some willingness to help the CCP when asked. Attributing nothing but good intentions for the 350,000 Chinese students admitted to the US each year is naïve.
I'm not sure I understand the argument of the article. Yes my graduate classes have many Chinese students in them, but why exactly is it bad that they are furthering their education and doing research in the US? The biggest issue I see is that many of them want to live and work in the US after graduation, but basically have to leave it up to luck in the visa lottery system.
because the US still has the reputation of better higher education. but also, many of the chinese students will go back to china and bring their experience with them. this will benefit china, but also the experience of living in a foreign country will promote a better understanding between china and the US and create a better future for the world
I am a Chinese who went to college (a small liberal arts college) in the States. This was 10 years ago, so I am not part of the current wave. I returned to China after graduation, and have recently begun interviewing applicants for my alma mater (because there are now so many applicants from China). I have been meeting currently enrolled students and applicants. Here are a few observations.
- there are indeed a lot more of them than before. at the time I was attending, each year we had maybe one student from China. Now they enroll 5-6 every year.
- more rich kids. when i was attending, the chinese students were all attending on a full scholarship from the school (private US education cost being what it was, and Chinese per capita GDP being what it was, few Chinese families could afford it without the scholarship) - these probably explains why they admitted only one student from China per year. but these days, the families don't seem to bat an eye paying the full $40K+/year.
- students are getting more mainstream. in the 90s, applying to colleges from China was like a hack. nobody knew much about anything. to even dream of such things was to be a little quirky. but these days there are all these SAT prep courses and consultants (two of my friends were in this business), and high schools have dedicated advisors on applying to US colleges. and this shows in the students admitted. I remember back then the Chinese students were more creative and original and adventurous (for coming to the US is a risky/adventurous thing to do. selection bias here, not unlike the adventurous 1st generation immigrants coming to the States); these days we get far more over-achieving resume-builders who were president of student clubs, and I think will go on to be investment bankers and have successful careers and I hope will donate back to the school generously one day. Instead of the odd kid who couldn't fit in, and said "f&!k it, I am getting the hell out of here" -- I was such a kid. (I realize this is probably an unfair judgment because I did not have as much interaction with the current students/applicants as I had with people whom I attended school with.)
I am quite ambivalent about the situation. I am happy that my school is getting some attention at this end of the world. but I don't know how I feel about the change in the kind of students we attract and will have as alumni.
Well, if U.S. has an advantage in an overlooked area by general public and someone in the Economist points out, then the author is "blatantly pro-US"?
At the other hand. A better question to ask to anyone from Europe is: if there are good universities in England, France and Germany, then why students from these 2 top universities in China are not going there?
Is it because language barrier? Is it the economic prospect of Europe not viewed as good as U.S.? Are immigration regulations more restricted in Europe when they finish school and decide to stay instead of going back to China? Or do universities in those countries not accept more foreign students than local students? Do in general those countries have problems with immigrants and those student feel unwanted or discriminated? Or do universities in those countries forge good relationships with the two universities in China?
U.S. is not perfect in every aspect. But I don't like the idea when anyone points out its advantages then he/she should be labeled as "blatantly pro-US".
Or, maybe American’s have grown tired of educating state sponsored (China) students whose sponsors quite literally seek to exfiltrate knowledge from U.S. academia and industry. Do you think I as an American would be welcome to attend a Chinese university 100% remotely? Do you think China would allow any American to attend a program in China that could help the U.S. build a competitive or defensive advantage?
Under normal circumstances you would want to see America. You would want to be with the best to get a bit of paper at the end from a top notch place. The world would then be your oyster. You would know people, you would know what America is like and how nice American people are (under normal circumstances).
But what happens if you know you won't be welcomed? What if you had got wind of this hysteria going on?
You go somewhere else.
It might not be America but at least you could do your degree without people muttering 'Chinese Whispers' (!) about how you are there just to harvest people's IP and steal their state organs.
If English is the language to learn then there are plenty of universities in England that will gladly take Chinese money. The hysteria hasn't sullied the atmosphere in the UK yet. Then there are Scandinavian countries, Germany and other places where you get English going on in science subjects. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada are good options too.
Then there are the non-English speaking countries that roll the red carpet out for China. Anything belt and road. Russia. There are plenty of places. Now there are options and the idea of studying in the U.S. is not really looking that exciting. Plus, the more you look into it there can be better places to get a particular degree than one of the Ivy League big names.
This could precipitate a serious decline in the international standing of U.S. universities. If departments are not getting the big bucks coming in from Chinese admissions they will have to get students from elsewhere. The bar gets lowered in the process and it becomes a downward spiral.
The only American cars of interest internationally are the ones by Tesla. Nobody wants an American car. In Europe we used to imitate American cars albeit cut down to cheap size. But, nowadays, Tesla aside, nobody in Europe would consider an American car as a serious proposition. And there isn't anything Detroit can do to change that.
If American academia gets to go in a similar downward spiral then there is no way back out of it. American universities could become the preserve of American rich kids with no intake from Asia or elsewhere. Then the ambitious U.S. students would have to be studying in Europe to get an education that was a cut above, or, even in China!
This is a slippery slope that we are on, all because of a minority that want to forego hospitality, trust, warmth and international spirit and succumb to fear, nationalism, hysteria and rumour-mongering.
reply