> If someone went through CS, expect to see a different caliber of work for the same task.
I disagree. See: hordes of new CS graduates that feel they are completely unprepared for an entry-level software engineering job, or their interviewers.
>> learn how to turn requirements into code. A boot camp grad has a leg up here.
> We did that in undergrad, most of my friends and I are leading small teams a few short years after graduation. We found that people without CS degrees can't handle ambiguity, and need a lot of hand holding to get things done, but maybe bootcamp grads are different.
i don't think that bootcamp grads are different because of the bootcamp but possibly because they already have real world experience from before or were switching fields. they are also often older and more mature, but, most critically i wonder how many places teach how to turn requirements into code. my CS undergrad classes didn't have any of that. it's not "science" to solve peoples problems.
> How many people do you know in the industry without CS degrees? A lot of those folks came in through bootcamps, whether they cop to it or not.
People without CS degrees or degrees at all are fairly common, including at staff level and above. Many of these people have been in the industry since before bootcamps became a thing.
> recent CS grads often no longer have the domain knowledge to jump into the field without prior experience, so we're seeing a shift towards bootcamp grads, who have some actual practical experience in developing software.
Is this true? I have nothing against bootcamp grads and have known a few great ones, but anecdotally people who graduated from CS degrees are much better at adopting to software engineering roles than bootcamp grads.
And I think the reason is the fundamentals. People with CS degree know about concepts like contention, memory models and the difference between pass by reference and value. These things take a while to grasp for someone that just went through the firehose that is the bootcamp.
> This is 100% a problem with younger, bootcamp-”educated” devs, in my experience.
I resent this. Not because I'm a bootcamp-"educated" dev. I'm not. But it suggests somehow that devs with CS degrees are somehow better in this aspect. If anything, they're arguably worse (obligatory, not everyone disclaimer).
> Do you think there are smart people who would or could be good developers who did not major in computer science and later went on to attend a 'bootcamp'?
Yes.
> Do you think it's possible that developers who are not good could graduate from college with CS degrees?
Absolutely.
The difference is that the boot camp experience seems to provide a different skill set from a full-time degree (see the article that started this conversation).
> Programming-related jobs have high rates of skill turnover. Over time, the types of skills required by companies hiring software developers change more rapidly than any other profession.
There's a reason I still strongly prefer candidates with a computer science degree to someone with 9 months at a bootcamp for some roles. New tools, frameworks, programming languages, and libraries constantly enter this industry. I believe knowing the fundamentals and having a deep understanding of how computers work allows you to more quickly pick up new things.
I understand there are curious graduates that come out of bootcamp programs who will dive deep and fill in the gaps and there are universities with subpar computer science departments. I still prefer the latter in general cases.
What I've seen with Bootcamps is that they know one stack and how to do one thing only. They are really productive in that one stack but lack the more fundamental understanding that CS grads have.
When it comes to learning a new stack, technique or solving harder problems, the CS students run in circle around bootcamp grads. But to the non-technical manager, they see the bootcamp kids writing code on day one so they naively assume they are better.
> Do you think there are smart people who would or could be good developers who did not major in computer science and later went on to attend a 'bootcamp'?
Of course. I know someone that would fit that description, and I don't think he's unusual.
> Do you think it's possible that developers who are not good could graduate from college with CS degrees?
Of course. I graduated with some and work with some. Strictly speaking, learning to write software is just a side-effect of learning how algorithms, data structures, and all that work. Some people never get very good at writing software.
I think you're missing the point, though. College vs boot camp isn't a matter of the skill of the resulting developers. It's more of a focus on different skills. Suppose a technician and an engineer are writing a program together. Maybe the engineer works on the "deep dive" aspects of the design (tough algorithms. the critical path of the program). Maybe the technician works on the overall architecture, wiring things up cleanly and producing an artful design. They're different focuses, and it's a division that doesn't currently really exist in SW dev, but does in some other fields (electrical engineers vs electricians, mech eng's vs various technicians, etc).
> Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Give me a chance?
That's more or less all most CS graduates can say though. I personally don't think anyone is qualified to be a professional developer until they've been programming for several years (especially coding in an unstructured way).
I don't want to be combative, but what made you think you needed a bootcamp? I learned to program long before I went to college and was hired for programming projects long before I graduated.
> Another problem is that just because a person graduates with a degree in X, doesn’t mean they are any use at X
Perhaps true, but this:
> I know a bunch of CS degreed people who got out of virtually every coding course in university.
is arguably a different problem, because CS isn’t Software Engineering, though the right focus within CS study can be a good preparation for work in software engineering.
> They are technically part of the group of potential employees for technical work,
If they aren’t working as software engineers and aren’t seeking jobs as software engineers, are they really?
> If a 4 year CS degree isn't enough, then people who do this have no idea what they are doing.
I’ve interviewed many people with 4 year CS degrees who can’t really code. I’m not sure how this happens, but it definitely does. I disagree that having a CS degree should excuse candidates from coding interviews.
> there are just a lot of CS graduates with little to no professional coding experience either out of laziness or lack of knowledge (yes, there are people who expect a job with just a degree)
Why are you expecting fresh college graduates to have professional experience?
>But they don't have as much experience programming?
Then by that metric you don't even need a degree and your initial point of a BS > Masters > Bootcamp is nullified by the self-taught programmer that has programmed longer than anyone else in that group that happens to apply for your position. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will be a better programmer in the long term.
>>I am far less happy using software written by a graduate of one of these "learn to code" 12 week workshops... Security is hard. Reliability is hard.
Sure. But the graduates of those workshops don't get jobs working on security and critical infrastructure. Rather, they get hired as junior programmers and are given small-scale projects where they can continue to learn and grow under the guidance of more experienced developers.
Besides, the code school graduates often have critical subject matter expertise in their former fields. For example, when I need a programmer to build an in-house system for a marketing team, I'd be much more willing to hire a former marketing specialist who completed a 3-month code school than a fresh computer science graduate.
> Problem with coding is that there are 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th level programmers.
I'm a star-guy-from-big-name-cs-school, and I'm developing complex systems from scratch. However, few people from my promotion are actually doing that, most of them will work on mobile/front-end or small webservices in a random B2C startup (something that will fall into the hacking category?).
Your school and your degree will only matter for your first and maybe your second job. After that, experience is more appreciated.
> I work with a few software engineers who do not have CS degrees - they have extensive industry experience and are fantastic to work with.
Different things entirely. She preferred A over B, you are talking about C.
bootcamp grads vs fresh CS grads vs industry veterans.
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