However, what if the election really was fraudulent? I mean the video in Georgia after the election observer were sent home, were pretty incriminating.
Also seeing how BLM got backing and did way more damage, makes this all look pretty one-sided. It's only okay if they do it.
Ya, imagine if someone like, accused the American voting system of being totally corrupt, without evidence and then specifically called out 3-4 of the largest majority Black population cities as being the root of corruption. And specifically called out all the poll workers (most of which are Black) in those cities as being corrupt cheaters.
Just imagine the uproar. No one in their right mind would stand behind someone like that, right?
I've seen conflicting information on who made what decisions. I can't prove it either way, of course.
At the very least, the voter purge and subsequent FBI investigation and lawsuit are not what you'd expect from someone who wants to help people vote, right?
We've also seen federal judges, including the Supreme Court, say that Republicans have been responsible for racial gerrymandering[1][2][3], unconstitutional ID laws to suppress the vote[4], and outright election fraud[5] all over the Southeast. Voter suppression by the minority party is logical and also a decades-old strategy, including a motivation for the war on drugs[1].
Why would Georgia be different? If the election were completely fair, it would have been an exception rather than the rule, and the state govt would reflect the population (majority Democrat) instead of being 100% controlled by Republicans.
What is it that you think happened here? Like specifically how would this fraud work?
The ballots have all been accounted for, an investigation confirmed no boxes were added or removed, and all the ballots in Georgia were subsequently audited and then recounted twice.
Here is a slightly better link that further links to some source documents including that state investigators testimony (since this whole thing of course was already considered and rejected by a court) https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/video-doesnt-show-suitcase... Do you think the investigators report would contradict their own testimony?
Not that it should matter, but all the county and state election officials involved are Republicans too.
That's because there's video evidence of Fulton County Georgia poll workers clearing out all poll watchers on the basis of a bullshit pipe leak story and then as soon as everyone left they brought out suitcases of ballots and started scanning them in. There's 1000 affidavits of egregious election fraud and abuse in this election. The Supreme Court's refusal to even hear Texas's case is outrageous.
So you're saying one county, with ~80,000 delayed votes, ~60% of which were for Biden, completely eliminates Georgia as a counterexample here? I don't have a good spider-sense for this kind of number crunching so I'd have to do some math.
> It's fine if you're not paying attention, but way less fine to build a narrative about voter fraud based on it.
I have not been claiming there is anything to this theory, but it is fun to argue about. And I'm definitely not happy to see this argument get personal, but from my perspective, it is least fine of all to gaslight people with a nonsense fairy-tale that corruption and fraud do not exist.
"On July 3, Marks' organization and state voters filed their lawsuit, and on July 7, technicians at KSU wiped the server. When the case later moved to federal court in August, technicians wiped at least one additional server one day after a federal judge was assigned to the case."
Even if you throw out or flip Georgia, the math still doesn't work out for electoral votes.
So now you have to move the goalposts to saying that there was massive voter fraud in every battleground state.
Let's be clear, every state certified their votes. This includes states with republican leadership. And every court case brought against the election results has failed.
Even if you accept the idea that in many ways it is difficult or impossible to audit the results (I don't agree), the only evidence that has been presented against the result are absurd conspiracy theories and patent falsehoods as well as testimony from people with an axe to grind.
In other cases we have seen (Gore) there was an actually agreed upon issue. Hanging chads on the ballots were real and verifiable. This is not the case today.
Also let us be clear that this has not happened before. It is not before the current administration that "massive voter fraud" has entered the conversation. It was presented in 2016 despite Trumps win (amusing). It is presented now for no other reason than to distract, raise money, and serve the fragile ego of the President.
Okay, so if the total rejected ballot data isn't available what is your basis for claiming that it did happen? The burden of proof rests on the accuser. In any case we know that the signature rejection rates for Georgia in past elections were low.
What do you mean we don't have definitive results? Biden's win was certified by the states in the last week, in accordance with the law. It will only get more definitive when the electoral college votes next week. This is nothing new in the U.S., it's the way the process works.
Are you talking about the ballot harvesting in North Carolina, or the fraud investigations in Georgia? If it's the latter, we don't have any good way to estimate the impact because the ruling party destroyed evidence and canned the investigations[0]
Just last week there was a case filed with the Supreme Court, asking them to throw out the election results in Georgia, Pennsylvania, Nevada, and Arizona. (Hopefully we can agree that this would be a coup if it happened?) The President, most of his party in the House, and almost 20 states explicitly endorsed it.
In a bench trial, the judge is supposed to weight the evidence presented, and issue various different degrees of relief based on whether it meets certain standards in totality. For a case where the plaintiff is asking the judge to overturn the result of an election, the judge would require a rather high standard of evidence.
I was talking about hard evidence specifically -- think a smoking gun with the suspect's fingerprints on it. According to what I have been lead to believe, if election fraud happened in the US, sufficient evidence of said fraud would be discovered and presented to American courts, though that is not the case in other countries.
Therefore if I have not been mislead, when a person considers whether there was election fraud in the US, they should only consider whether sufficient evidence has been presented to courts or to the media, not whether there exist other lesser forms of evidence.
Every time we criticize Georgia, we should remember that the President's party is the one in charge of elections there, and the one in charge of auditing and assuring security of those elections. There is every incentive for the state election commission to cry foul if there was foul to cry; the fact they have not is extremely telling, and one really has to widen the conspiracy net to come up with an explanation that puts the state election commission of Georgia in on a conspiracy to defraud the electoral process.
> there is not institutional effort to investigate the irregularities
I don't know what you would consider "institutional effort," but there are absolutely processes for investigating irregularities and multiple investigations are currently in progress. Georgia just concluded one such audit today. https://www.ajc.com/politics/no-fraud-georgia-audit-confirms... - they don't get reported on in detail because, to be honest, the details are boring and therefore don't make for very good news; they have about as much fun as a tax audit with even fewer exciting variables. and to really get a big picture of what's going on, one has to track the news from multiple states, since every state manages its own balloting system.
A full and exhaustive audit takes time. The President commissioned such an audit at the federal level for the 2016 election, and it resolved in 2018, finding an absolute handful of actionable cases. I would expect the audits that are going on now to continue, as multiple parties are interested in pursuing them. But they take time; the one for 2016 took two years.
So even if you were right about Georgia (even though the evidence says you are not). That would not change the outcome.
But then you will involve slippery slope and day: but if it happened in Georgia, then it probably happened elsewhere... but that’s BS, you need to show the evidence elsewhere as well.
Then even if you accept all the bullshit, there is maximum only absolutely max: 2 million votes in “question”. Where Biden won by 7 million votes.
So you Are still relying on the bs electoral college that has no democratic justification to say you won...
Honestly, if you want to stop the steal, get rid of that... but the problem with that is, you wouldn’t have had a Republican President since the 80s...
So keep making up rules until you can get minority rule. Filibusters, electoral college and failing that just kick down the doors... how can anyone think they are protecting democracy with this stuff!?
> It’s not clear who ordered the server’s data irretrievably erased. The Kennesaw election center answers to Georgia’s secretary of state, Brian Kemp, a Republican who is running for governor in 2018 and is the main defendant in the suit. ... The server data could have revealed whether Georgia’s most recent elections were compromised by malicious hackers. The plaintiffs contend that the results of both last November’s election and a special June 20 congressional runoff — won by Kemp’s predecessor, Karen Handel — cannot be trusted.
If you look, there's plenty of evidence. When doing search, set the date range to be before 2015 because since 2015, pretty much all media has lost their minds and started reporting the exact opposite of what they used to report. It's as if they have all erased their history and search results now hide it thanks to Google.
You can find plenty of examples of voter fraud, vast majority is through mail-in (including absentee and ballot harvesting)
> The Miami Herald won a Pulitzer Prize for its investigation of a 1997 mayor’s race in Miami that was thrown out by the courts because of an estimated 5,000 fraudulent absentee ballots.
> A 2003 mayor’s race in East Chicago, Indiana, was overturned by the Indiana Supreme Court because of absentee ballot fraud, as well as other problems such as individuals voting whose registered residences were vacant lots.
> A stolen election in Greene County, Alabama, involving hundreds of fraudulent absentee ballots resulted in 11 people being convicted of voter fraud.
> In Essex County, New Jersey, there is an ongoing investigation of fraudulent absentee ballots in a 2007 state Senate race. Charges have already been filed against five people, including campaign workers who were submitting absentee ballots on behalf of voters who never received or voted the ballots.
Even the democrats used to agree to this fact until Trump came along:
In 2004, Jerry Nadler (Democrat) asserts that paper ballots, particularly in the absence of machines, are extremely susceptible to fraud:
https://www.theroot.com/exclusive-thousands-of-black-votes-i...
Or how about a federal district court ruling?
https://electionlawblog.org/wp-content/uploads/georgia-dre-d...
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