The favoured retort of the pro CCP group is American imperialism. No doubt, I agree it is no longer in America's best interest to defend foreign nations and to meddle internationally.
However, that does not excuse your ignorance. A totalitarian regime that has caused more death than any other regime in history; one that primarily values wealth over freedom; one that does not believe in the sanctity of human life (ie Uighurs) is not fit to be influencing global culture.
Moreover, I agree American foreign imperialism has caused awful things to happen, but one thing no one ever realizes:
this is the only time in human history that the world has had a monopole aka one dominant super power by far. Usually the world is bipolar or multipolar. Yet the last 70 years has yielded the fewest deaths from war as a percent of the global population in history. Should America be upset with its past? Sure. However, if China had been the global monopole for the last 70 years I do not believe the total death toll from war would be so low. thanks for ur opinion
US is a benevolent guardian of international world order and its geopolitical supremacy has brought nothing but benefits to other parties (Asia, EU, Japan). Unlike China, which only considers its own interests and has a leadership that is politically backward, does not hold any civilized values and poses a military threat to world peace and stability. Your feral Anti-Americanism is cute, but you offer nothing of substance.
The current global trade network is a consequence of a massive coordination of many nations helmed by the United States during the cold war. That empire is not an empire of one, it is an empire of many. All conflicts the US has been involved in during and since are downstream of a geopolitical chess game aimed at coordinating many many nations against would be hegemonic challengers.
That may seem like a preposterous justification given some of the conflicts the US has been in and the death of the USSR, and there is certainly plenty to criticize about our stupidity and unilateral behavior and corruption. But I don’t think it’s possible to overemphasize just how big World War 2 was or what the lessons were.
An even bigger global dictatorship than Hitler’s helmed by Stalin was very much a possibility. And the only way to stop a nuclear superpower helmed by a ruthless dictator from building a global network and achieving hegemonic power is to build your own first. World War 2 taught the world that dismantling your war machine allows the ruthless to build a juggernaut while you sleep.
The lesson of World War 2 was to keep the war machine in democratic republics dominant at all costs because dictatorships will surpass you militarily if you don’t.
The reality of that is ugly and in many ways the actions of the US are unjust. I think it can and has been made more just over time and can and should be kept in check by as many independent actors as possible that ensure overreach is impossible and bad actions are addressed.
But it is not comparable to China, not just because the CCP is far less powerful externally and far less accountable internally, but because China is not coordinating with the world in ways that benefits the world. China is far more authoritarian than the US, far less sophisticated in it’s propaganda than the USSR, and far more reliant on home base when extending itself. The US managed to build global logistical networks because more countries benefitted from the US global trade network than didn’t and our propaganda about the material well being we can deliver is actually true, albeit with caveats. The scale of US hegemony is impossible to enforce without the majority of participants voluntarily cooperating. In fact one of the populations hurt the most (though obviously not nearly as much as those killed in the wars that enabled the hegemony necessary for global trade, whether ostensibly or in reality) was the domestic middle class of the US itself.
Despite the flaws, and no matter what some claim, the US is the most foreign friendly benevolent global empire in world history, and the prosperity we ushered in is unprecedented. The technology that has lifted the world out of poverty simply would not be possible without global trade, and the amount of global conflict has (or had, considering how disruptive the Ukraine conflict has been) never been lower. The framework about rule of law violations and unjust conflict used to criticize the US most is something the US made possible on a global scale.
Criticism of the US is vital. It is valid. Our flaws need to be reckoned with, and we are currently facing a crisis of purpose that we have played a significant part in creating with our overemphasis on consumerist material well being at the expense of other considerations, which has created domestic decay. That does not mean a world without a corrupt and stupid global policeman optimizing for material prosperity over other forms of prosperity would be better than the one we have, or that any other organization is better suited to guard against would be global tyrants on the level of Stalin.
It is also imperative to get as many good people high up in that hegemonic military machine as possible. If we denigrate our military too much due to its (many) failures, we risk repelling good people who could keep it in check from enduring that grinding machine and steering it for the better.
So tl;dr, I love my country too, and hope we keep it together and make sure we fix and improve what we’ve got, not dismantle it out of a sense of global fairness that history has sadly shown we cannot rely on.
"it's not an overreaction to say that the CCP has been undermining other countries for decades to gain the upperhand"
That is most certainly an overreaction. One based on projecting the current situation backwards in time. China has been engaging in foreign intervention to widen its influence for, at most, 10 years. 20 years ago, China's GDP was 12% that of the US (hell, Japan's GDP was 4x larger than China then). 30 years ago, it's GDP was just 6% that of the US. China was simply too damn poor to have much global influence. Even today, China's per capita GDP is on par with Mexico, not any developed nation -- it's just a lot lot bigger.
More to the point, its various infrastructure/resource extraction projects are still quite minor in comparison to the existing US/European ones. China has a handful of military/pseudo-military bases outside its borders. The US has bases in dozens of nations.
From a western governmental perspective, the general "problem" with spreading Chinese influence in developing nations is simply that they are not part of the western (read US) hegemony. This is something the modern era has never seen before. Over 100 hundred years of western nations/cultures being without rival is nearing its end and this scares many people in the west. Which is fair enough, the power/influence game is zero-sum, after all.
From western ethical perspective, the problem is that China tends to not give a damn what the governments they ally with do. They seem to have specific goals and outside of those, they don't care. For good or for ill. This strikes some people in the west as unethical. Many westerners seem to feel that other people's would be better off if they adopt western morality. But at the same time, other westerners feel that the west should leave other nations alone -- except when the Chinese behave that way, of course.
All that said, projecting your feelings forward may be more appropriate, IMO. The rivalry between the US (aka "the west") is only going to increase as the Chinese economy (and thus foreign influence) grows. This is mostly based, IMO, on US insecurity about losing its dominant position. But, currently, and for the next decade or two, the US still overshadows China by a huge margin.
Notice that I said the CCP is imperial-"minded" and not necessarily imperial yet. We should hope that they don't try to take more territory after Hong Kong and (likely) Taiwan, but we should also be afraid that they will -- as we should be afraid of any nuclear power, including the US, doing the same.
> in terms of imperialism I'm much more worried about the USA
The US hasn't added/conquered territory since 1947, and it hasn't acquired a large, populated territory since 1898[1]. Whatever you want to call US foreign policy (certainly disastrous in the 20th century and early 21st), it's not imperial in the traditional sense of conquest and annexation.
> How many countries has China invaded in the last 20-30-40 years? How many has the USA?
The US hasn't unilaterally invaded any country since Panama in 1989[2]. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are horrific human rights disasters and unforgivable crimes, but they were not what I would call imperial. You may disagree.
China is in the process of taking over Hong Kong, and they already occupy Tibet, parts of Nepal, and parts of India[3]. They have shown aggression on many disputed borders in the last few years, and they have increased their naval presence in many parts of the world.
We should expect to see Taiwan annexed in the future, per Xi himself, although it's hard to know when or how they'll do it[4].
> in most countries the USA foreign policy isn't seen as something more virtuous than China...on the contrary, it's usually seen as worse. The USA's internal policy (human rights, democracy) is seen as better though
I am from the US and I do realize this. US foreign policy is certainly worse and more deadly than China's, but (as I've said in other comments) the US is not actively taking over new territory.
The two main differences are:
- US foreign policy trajectory is toward fewer wars, partly because we are a democracy and citizens are extremely against starting new wars now; Chinese policy is in the direction of aggression
- the US is not a dictatorship capable of ethnic genocide (at least in the modern era)
I would much rather continued US world domination than cede that power to China. Yes, that's easy for me to say as an American, but I can't help but think that other Western nations would suffer as well under China's dominance.
Yes, the US's liberal democracy isn't in the best of shape (to put it mildly), but China is an isolationist, authoritarian nation where state censorship and human-rights abuses are the norm, not the exception.
Oh come on. China has clear ambitions to be the worlds superpower. I have my gripes about the US, but China is clearly a much worse outcome for human rights. It’s not that they are the “enemy”, it’s that it would be flat out unacceptable for the CCP to control the entire planet. What’s plaguing American academia, and America at large, is China’s influence and bribes.
I think it's much easier to like Chinese imperialism with things like Belt and Road, which actually helps little people despite all of the downsides, than it is to love American imperialism, which largely consists of coups against democratically elected governments, forced work on US companies' plantations, civilian infrastructure bombing, paying and training terrorists (the taliban, first and foremost), weapon sales to terrorist belligerent regimes (Israel, Saudi Arabia, historically Irak, Iran), forced kidnappings and interrogations, mining the harbors of Nicaragua and ignoring the International Criminal Court penalties for this proven war crime, and so many others.
Of course, it should go without saying that most people would much rather live in the US than China. But to most people who are not citizens, the US is much scarier than China. Exceptions such as Japan, Israel, South Korea, Republic of China (Taiwan), Federal Republic of Germany after WWII are just that - exceptions.
According to Gallup poles, the majority of the world fears the US more than any other country.
Right, congratulations on spouting straight-down-the-line CCP/Soviet anti-American tropes, while simultaneously conflating pre- and post-20th century / WWII world orders.
Oh, and revealing yourself as a complete fool citing anythign Trump says as if it were fact. Yikes.
And trying to claim that China is not expansionist despite it's post WW-II history? Yikes againb. Just look at the ACTUAL history in Korea, Tibet Uhigurs, "9-dash-line", Hong Kong, "Belt and Road Initiative" trying to take Africa, claims on Taiwan, and more. Again mistaking lacking the capability to project global power for the will.
I never disputed that the pre-WWII order was the Age of Empire, going back to times of Alexander, and that the Americas were basically stolen from the native populations, going back to Columbus.
That does not mean that things are the same, or that the Free World is not different from the Authoritarian regimes. I note that while you seem to love all these authoritarian regimes, you don't live there. I hope you're paid well for your trolling. Have a good day.
I’m voicing the reality of the situation, in that the world is not a nice place when you let things fester all over the world.
China has done great at mobilizing their population, definitely. But don’t you worry that having unlimited power in a secretive cabal (CCP) is a bit dangerous?
I disagreed vehemently with Iraq. If the US just lets any place fester into an autocracy, then that autocracy has the base to expand their sphere.
So instead of the US capitalist sphere with its obvious but controllable problems... we’ll have your world where strongmen can expand their spheres. In those spheres, our businesses can be pushed out or taken control of without rule of law. So our country diminishes and eventually collapses.
So you sit on your high horse and play armchair quarterback, when in reality you benefit from the imperfect hegemony the US established for much of the world. Countries in our sphere have benefitted greatly: SK, Japan, Europe, Taiwan, India, Mexico, etc.
considering how much evil was done by US in last 15 years worldwide and how many millions of innocents died/suffer daily just because of lust for money and power, i am perfectly happy with Chinese taking banner of world supreme power for next few decades. side-by-side comparison of last 20-30 years leaves US in shame. I have more trust in Chinese party leaders rather than joke US presidency had become, with all those shady machinations behind the scenes. No, it ain't great either, but definitely lesser of an evil and US is spiraling down faster than ever.
and it was once a beacon of democracy and free world...
also, US has no greater claim to be the ruler of pacific region compared to China. in fact, if you look at the map, opposite is true.
I don’t like the CCP but I also find it extremely distasteful how the US is always bossing around their smaller allies. Alliance with the US is such a one sided deal.
America is a poor role model. Through these actions it is really just telling China that “night is right” It is like saying “When you become as powerful as us, you also get to boss around small countries”
I really wish the world was not as dominated by a few hyper powers.
China is still the single greatest threat to world peace, from Tiananmen Square to ethnic cleansing, the government of China is a despotic regime of murderers. Anything the west can do to combat this, it’s a good thing, and shame on any American brand that puts profits over human rights.
The world's unwillingness to do so boils down to two reasons.
Firstly, all of the proposed courses of action involve giving more power to the US, which shall I remind you, kills millions of people in wars like it's nothing. It's not clear at all that decreasing China's power but increasing that of the US will do any good to anyone. Just in Iraq, the US killed more people than anyone accuses China of imprisoning illegitimately. So unless you can find a way to reduce China's power without also increasing that of the US, no one outside of those under US propaganda or interest will want to do much of anything.
Secondly, China is a nuclear armed country. Intervening in their domestic affairs is not easily done.
Finally, comparing the CCP to the NSDAP is frankly absurd. They are not comparable. The Nazi party wanted to kill around a third of the world's population and enslave another third. The CCP is accused, at worst, to be trying to change the culture of one of their provinces using inhumane tactics and torture, which sadly is just par for the course for the world in general.
And yet I trust America's intentions more than China's. Going by track record alone, China's had a murderous regime that tortured and killed its own people by the millions. Wouldn't want them controlling my country that's for sure.
It's good to see the US responding with its own astro-turfing. I bet you don't even get paid for doing it.
I think you need to look at China with a more Chinese point of view, as that's how they look at themselves.
The US too do a lot of illegitamite things with their GDP.
They also ignore human rights and freedom of speech... And they invade other countries (not just move military into their waters)... They support dictators in Syria, and seem to intentionally destabilise parts of the world for economic advantage. The world isn't doomed now even with that far worse list being a reality, why do you think it will be if China gained more power?
There's a lot of bad stuff that isn't going away. Global powers projecting that power in various ways is one of them. It would absolutely be better if the US/China didn't do the bad things they have done. Good luck stopping that from happening in the future, it's been happening since civilization was created.
However, that does not excuse your ignorance. A totalitarian regime that has caused more death than any other regime in history; one that primarily values wealth over freedom; one that does not believe in the sanctity of human life (ie Uighurs) is not fit to be influencing global culture.
Moreover, I agree American foreign imperialism has caused awful things to happen, but one thing no one ever realizes: this is the only time in human history that the world has had a monopole aka one dominant super power by far. Usually the world is bipolar or multipolar. Yet the last 70 years has yielded the fewest deaths from war as a percent of the global population in history. Should America be upset with its past? Sure. However, if China had been the global monopole for the last 70 years I do not believe the total death toll from war would be so low. thanks for ur opinion
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