This is just my experience, but that isn't true at all. I work in the US for a huge European based Multinational with an HQ is Western Europe, Dev offices in Western and Eastern Europe, US, and Asia. There are plenty of devs all over the world who are slackers, but who know how to play the visibility and politics game well enough that they are perceived as high value.
I've worked for two other Multinationals and with consulting and partner firms in Europe and Asia. Some people are amazing and work really hard, and some know how to make themselves look good and get fancy positions (e.g. senior architect) where they slack off and keep themselves busy selling themselves by attending meetings. At one place I worked there was constant frustration that our European colleagues had no sense of urgency or motivation at all.
I think the point dhuyrv is making is that in many situations, you can take advantage of the fact that most people don't really know the difference between what you actually do and what you project to others. In many jobs (no matter where you are in the world), playing the game of selling yourself can do more for your career and salary than writing code.
I know many devs who abandoned the 'high quality of life' of Western Europe for higher pay elsewhere. It is really not all that glamorous to be a dev here.
That may be the case, but as a software dev in the US, you're actually the beneficiary (via your very high salary) of the dog-eat-dog market economics that dominate the US. Whereas in Europe, as a developer you're just expected to be content with a mediocre salary, like everybody else. The only escape out of it (in Europe) seems to be the contracting market for senior people, where the rates are on par with US non-FAANG salaries.
And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe.
Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company.
They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch).
However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley.
Now as a freelancer, I move a lot from companies to companies, and I hear the same complaint over and over: we can't find good devs.
But when I look at the job offers they publish, it's full of buzzwords and cool attitude, yet the pay is not remotely matching the skills they are hiring for.
You want somebody speaking 2 tongues, coding expertly in 3 languages (e.g: server lang + js + css), knowing a bit of sysadmin, ergonomics, architectural design, data base, and capable of understanding your undocumented stack du jour + infra.
My pet theory on why tech in Europe is worse than in the US is the lack of career opportunities for software devs. If I, as a developer, want to make more than 100k a year here in Germany, the easiest thing is to work remotely for a US company. There is no corporate ladder for devs. If there is one, it isn't very long. Hungry, young devs move into management or consulting. So, there is no incentive to get better as a developer.
I’m, of course, talking generalities here; there will be exceptions.
The difference is, Europe see developers as commodities. They don't care, they don't need them as much as they do in San Francisco.
San Francisco see developers as the only way to achieve their project they just raised 10 millions for. You're gold to them, they accept to pay a higher price.
In Europe most young developers want to be Product Manager (or any Manager positions), most developers in SF don't care about this, they want to have fun. The reason could be you get paid super well in SF, and not in Europe :)
I’m a “senior” with about 8 years of experience in the US. I recently switched jobs to go fully remote. It took me about 2.5 weeks to get a new job with less responsibility and more pay. I was getting more interest from companies than I could handle and turned down 2/3s of phone screens.
I assume Europe must be a lot different than the US because I certainly didn’t notice it here.
From my previous role…the amount of “decent” devs out there is staggeringly low. The bullshit I’d put up with because a dev was technically competent was astounding given how much they were paid. It took months to find replacements that were passable. Again maybe it’s just US centric but I don’t see it. There is definitely a shortage of competent developers.
I think one key factor in the average quality of workers found in North America and elsewhere is the social aspect of career choice. In North America there's a pretty strong culture of pursuing jobs that people are interested in and enjoy. From what I've heard about India I think that there are very different social pressures that encourage people to choose careers for other reasons. Maybe this is not so, it's pure speculation on my part.
However if we assume that a similar percentage of people will be interested in computers no matter where they reside then there should be more than enough quality Indian and Chinese devs lurking somewhere. Perhaps they are more easily lost in the bigger sea of devs, but similarly they should also shine and stand out that much more as well. Could it be that those hunting for the lowest price keep stumbling on the less qualified devs and then perpetuate the myth that devs in India or China are all lousy?
(edit: I'm unsure if there actually is a higher average quality of developer in North America, it may just be a perceived difference. Raise your hand if you live in North America and have met at least one "developer" who you cannot believe is actually employed as one.)
Except that developers from countries that earn on average less than their US counterparts have an incentive to work for a US company remotely but a developer from the US does not have many incentives to work for less for a company abroad
Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Throughout this thread I've seen derogatory comments about "overseas" talent, which is to be avoided like plague.
Are the developers in USA really 10x more effective than in Asia/poorer parts of Europe, to warrant the 10x higher salaries? To me the answer is obviously not (I live in Eastern Europe), but perhaps there is some magical quality one acquires upon moving to the US :-)
EDIT: Obviously charge western rates if you can :) My point is it's hard to justify the imbalance of market value that you mention, in case of IT freelancing.
Yep.. you get paid shit as a dev here unless you run your own business.. has always been like that, will always be like that. Europe will never be big in software.
We have nice livable cities, and we have old cultures, that’s about all what’s good here
I don't disagree with you but that's probably some survivor bias there in your original post as maybe the finance IT bubble in the region you're in pays well but that certainly that doesn't apply to most dev positions across Europe as you originally stated. To put it another way, you're probably the exception, not the rule. :) But I agree with everything else you said, thanks for sharing.
People in Europe can be envy of salaries in US. Even in London which is not cheap either it's common for dev to get around $60k annually before tax (and taxes are high). This beg to ask a question : why employeers are so reluctant to hire remote devs even within similar timezone?
But I am in the EU and we all do better money than what I hear here what most American devs make. But sure; my colleagues just will never leave here so it would have to be better paid, many vacations, no stress, wfh and more money.
In the US, so many jobs, in so many industries, pay a complete pittance. It's one of the least regulated economies and people are seen as a fungible asset, hired, laid off at a company's convenience (in many states), and paid literally as little as possible. And yet, in this bizarro (for Europeans) world, devs are often paid a small fortune.
That's not generosity.
That's because they are recognized as bringing huge value, otherwise they would never be offered anywhere near those amounts of money. Europe just won't get it, therefore Europe is going to remain behind.
Not sure where this is supposed to be. Definitely not my experience in western europe (Ireland, Spain and Germany). Companies are _desperate_ to find competent developers, markets like Dublin or Berlin are complete saturated with demand and little offer. Companies are now embracing remote developers out of desperation, the talent pools are depleted. It's definitely a GREAT time to be a developer and if you're decent you have leverage. Tons of leverage.
I've worked for two other Multinationals and with consulting and partner firms in Europe and Asia. Some people are amazing and work really hard, and some know how to make themselves look good and get fancy positions (e.g. senior architect) where they slack off and keep themselves busy selling themselves by attending meetings. At one place I worked there was constant frustration that our European colleagues had no sense of urgency or motivation at all.
I think the point dhuyrv is making is that in many situations, you can take advantage of the fact that most people don't really know the difference between what you actually do and what you project to others. In many jobs (no matter where you are in the world), playing the game of selling yourself can do more for your career and salary than writing code.
All of the above is anecdotal of course.
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