Well, first of all, lose that sense of entitlement. It's hard to think of much that's less appealing than petulance.
It's also a pretty great way to blind yourself to what 'league' you're actually in. A number of my tech friends have wasted an extraordinary amount of time chasing women absurdly out of their league because they've been convinced that "having a decent job", "being well-spoken" and "eating with their mouths closed" somehow puts them in the top 3% of desirable men. Really, no.
Second, go have a life. You know, other activities outside work? Socializing? This is important anyhow. Preferably do activities because you're interested in them and socialize with people you like, not because you're there to "pick up chicks". Nothing is more tiring than dudes relentlessly on the make in every situation.
This isn't guaranteed to work... especially with dire male/female ratios (although not living like a schlub probably evens the odds a bit). And plenty of people are just really unattractive, uncharismatic, whatever. Not sure what to do then.
There's a traditional low-tech solution to this problem, used by generations of nerds. Step 1, hang out in real life with a bunch of guys. Have fun with them. (If you're really sucked into your work, this step could take a while.) Step 2 is that women will appear and you will date them.
The second, and there's basically no solution for it. Other than lie about your job, I guess. I tend to tell girls I'm a "mathematician", which is sort of true, is about equally nerdy but doesn't instantly cue low-status associations, and doesn't lead to further questions. It works about as well as anything I could say would, but I'm still clearly low-status and it sucks.
What's your proposed solution to dating as a low-status male? If it's the above "pretend society likes makers", well, uh, nice plan if you can convince everyone else to pretend it too, but until then, women will still want to know and shun you once you tell them.
Such feelings are natural. It used to bother me a lot too that others were getting laid, and I wasn't. Then, after some trial-and-error, I was able to "crack" the womens' code, in the sense that I was able to understand where they were coming from, and be very comfortable around them. That led to the pendulum swinging (pardon the pun) to the other extreme: I was getting more tail than any of the jocks I knew. It helped that I got into a better shape, dressed better and was able to hold a conversation with a woman without stuttering.
Just like any other complex system, it takes time and effort to figure out women (and I say this with all the respect to women, from a male nerd's viewpoint). It also involves a lot of failure and disappointment in the beginning; but one does (and must) get used to that in order to make progress. Don't let rejection dampen your enthusiasm.
there's tons of stuff on the internet for this now. keep these two things in mind:
1. is what you've been doing for years, working? then don't keep doing it.
2. has asking advice from women, ever worked?
3. imagine you have always been poor, how do you think your social circle would react if you tried to get rich? if you actually achieve it?
think deeply about these things with an open mind.
talking about the fact that you can actually learn to be good with women is highly offensive to a huge portion of the population because you are turning that something that should be 'natural' into something that can be quantified and that deeply upsets some people. they really can't handle it mentally.
There's a lot about redpill culture that is inexcusably execrable, but it does offer a true and practical answer to the question you have posed: do everything in your power to make yourself more attractive. Work out, get a good haircut, improve your wardrobe, develop your career, improve your social/conversation skills, have interesting hobbies. Become the best version of yourself and you will get more attention from others.
Cool story, bro! Your success is surely due to your hard work and Alger-like moral superiority, and not the fact that you're tall, attractive, and suave.
Your advice is worse than useless for the average dateless loser, who will never succeed no matter how much "effort" they put in. But this way you don't have to feel bad for them--it's their own fault they'll die alone, because they didn't _work_ hard enough.
I hope some day you actually learn what it's like to fail through attributes outside of your control, and have everyone blame you for it anyway.
Thank you very much for all the specific links and advice. The part I am trying to get over is how I think (and have thought for many years) that those guys just come across as pretentious dicks to me, and men who snap into a completely different personality as soon as a woman walks by fill me with some revulsion. I am very sensitive to bullshit myself and can't stand it in others and so maybe the main thing about Game that bothers me is how much it violates the golden rule for me. To impress me, just be who the fuck you are, you know?
That being said, I can't work around the fact that my sexual value isn't even just near zero right now, it's precisely zero. I'd probably settle down with any smart and nice woman who wasn't any worse than somewhat below average looking. Things that fall into place naturally for other men don't work for me. So it's basically a choice between never touching a girl in my life without paying for it or working my ass off for a few years to try and manipulate women enough that one or two will want to be close to me someday, and that's a much easier choice.
So, glass half full... you got the college degree, you got a job. Ya, you had a sucky job before. Welcome to the wonderful world of jobs. After you have a bunch of them you find many of them suck and start trying to avoid those.
The girlfriend thing.... ya, that's a hard one. First thing, don't be a complainer. Be someone people want to be around. Project light, not darkness. Exercise a little and regularly. Get some sun. Go easy on the video games and the masturbation. Avoid porn. Women are people, not objects, and if you want to be successful around them, that knowledge needs to be in your gut. Take care of what you wear. Very important... eat right. Lots of fruit. Lot's of omega3s. Sleep properly and look healthy. Smell good. Hard to explain exactly, but don't be creepy. Look like you are someone who has something to give rather than someone who wants to take. Be happy. Be open minded. Don't chase too hard. Be yourself... but your happy self and at your best. Don't try to fake it. Don't cling...just like a job, remember, you (almost) always have other options. Pay attention to little signals women give off. Don't mope and feel sorry for yourself ever. Try to be a gentleman at all times. Do these things, and most likely the girlfriend will eventually come when you least expect it.
So women don't think you're a real man. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect, turn all interactions with women into a game, and carefully craft yourself and all your presentation with single-minded purpose into a seduction machine.
I think that the solution is three-fold.
1) Find the right community/context. If you live in a community where evaluation is too shallow, then move. Find a different place to hang out. It's a big world out there, and there's all sorts of contexts. There are contexts where people are not completely vapid.
2) Substance. Be willing to die alone for your values. Are you? If you're not, then don't take this path. If you are, then welcome, brother! (+) In the meantime, do substantive things. Competence is sexy so have it, not just its semblance. Combine this with some genuine fun, and it's a killer combination.
3) Find ways to "be more you." One thing that impressed me about some of the hairdressers on "What Not to Wear" was their ability to make someone more who they were. They didn't jack with someone's identity, they just cleaned it up a bit.
(+) - Hetero women have a similar path that they can take, but it's not the exact same one as for hetero men. As for other orientations, there must be analogues, but I don't feel qualified to comment.
I think you'll have an easier time meeting women (and people in general) if you become a little more culturally active & outgoing. Your lifestyle is dominated by career/technical interests, which from your self description (and I say this with kindness) seems to make you a monotone personality. I sense that even you yourself are bored and frustrated with this monotony. If that is at all true, you must consider, what excitement and joy would you be bringing to a potential relationship?
You've probably adopted your technical and career focus because of your dream to live up to your potential and be successful. And that's admirable, of course. But there is a lot more to having a fulfilling life than just the virtue of productive work. There is the more human and cultural side of life, of which your desire to date is a part of.
It's time to expand your dream to include more of this other aspect of life.
It's a big world, but you haven't yet allowed yourself to explore much of it, neither intellectually or physically. Forgive me if I overreach, but have you made a negative value judgement on your own curiosity about the world, in the name of becoming a more productive and better programmer?
A worldly curiosity is what will give you breadth and diversity of experience, which in turn will make you a more interesting person, and ultimately make you a more creative problem solver and team member. It will also make you more socially comfortable and skilled.
Pay attention to the impulse that led you to your previous pursuit of classical voice that you mentioned. That's an unusual and intriguing hobby, an art that connects you with a tradition spanning thousands of years. And of course, there are lots of cool, nerdy music girls who do it too (especially if you're near a college with a good arts program). You mentioned it was there that you had some success with women. I submit it wasn't just because some of the other guys were gay, it was because you were doing something unusual and interesting that made you seem more attractive as a person.
You've (admirably) rejected the idea of the seedy seduction manuals. Those aren't what dating is about, anyway. In a healthy point of view dating and relationships aren't about games, tricks, and seduction, and you're mistaken if you think that is what people in relationships are actually doing.
Dating is about discovering the interesting qualities of another person and exploring the world and reaches of human experience. It's also about being discovered as a person, by the other person. But you've got to have something interesting to discover. And for that you've got to be curious about the world first. So rather than just giving up on dating, gritting your teeth and forcing your nose closer to the grindstone with the goal of becoming "more powerful and wealthy" as a solution, I think you need to expand your curiosity, and the range and variety of your pursuits.
PS- This isn't a throwaway account; it's my first post. And to be on topic: It's from someone who has had several very enjoyable long term relationships thanks to online dating sites.
Bingo! If you're constantly pretending to be someone else, and doing things you despise, just for the chance of a date, of course you're miserable!
If you have no interests with many women in it, cultivate others. I used to be all code code code, and other nerdy endeavors, but that simply won't do. There is so much out there, surely you can discover something that suits your interest AND has a population of women?
I moved to Seattle about a year ago - so far as dating goes, this place is a bit of a wasteland (MANY single and desperate software folk here), and while I don't do anything specifically to meet women, I have no qualms about opting for some activities over others. Be yourself - be an optimized version of yourself.
Then there is the kind where you are someone who can't be ignored simply because you are technically better than others around
This is very much not leadership; this is superiority. That can be extremely off putting if not handled rightly. Particularly if you dominate proceedings simply because of being the best. (it's difficult; I'm an excellent climber but I have to dial it back or I won't find anyone who wants to climb with me).
Something doesn't add up though (and I apologise for being blunt). You are obviously confident, have an attractive body and are smart - these are traits that will attract a mate very easily! (particularly the smarts).
One of two things may be happening.
Perhaps you are disillusioned with dating or with women and, so, are scuppering relationships via attitude or actions.
The other might be you simply have an off putting attitude without realising it when contacting women online. In fact from your post I suspect this is the problem. shrug
I've been in contact with women online that are off putting with their directness and surety - even if it is them you do have to be a bit cautious when starting out a relationship. The internet is impersonal so if done wrong you can come across very easily as arrogant and superior :)
Give me a few years, see if people I'm working with look up to me, and tell me I don't have the personality of a leader. I think I still won't be good enough for women though. Do I have a chip on my shoulder for this? Yes.
This is, basically, your entire problem. People look up to you for many reasons - I doubt you will ever achieve the respect you want the way you are going. People will roll their eyes and say "yes X, well done" (we have people like that at work; they don't last long...
My Boss commands respect in huge measure; he grafted his whole life, is very smart, very companionable, always willing to help people, always willing to listen to everyone in the firm. I suspect this is the sort of thing you are after - and be warned it takes a long time and serious, bashful effort.
Tried OkCupid? For my age it is a good experience and there seems to be plenty of mid-30's on there too. It's much more relaxed.
I hate to admit this, but reading the book "The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists"[0][1] helped me. At one point, I too was an introvert (right around your age as well) and reading the book gave me some tips to help talk to women, and people in general.
Now, before others start piling on, this book is misogynistic and juvenile. Most of the pick-up examples the author uses probably have a better success rate with college co-eds than late 20 early 30's female working professionals. But there are some good lessons you can extrapolate out of the swill of a story:
1. Outward appearance matters. Nobody wants to engage a slob.
2. Self-Confidence matters. Eye contact, a smile, a positive outlook, etc. You don't have to be a douche, but most people tend to gravitate to those with self-confidence (even if the self-confidence is misplaced).
3. The only way to get better at talking to people is by talking to people. Networking and personal social interaction only gets easier with practice. So the moral of this story is you will look like a fool in the beginning. Don't take yourself too seriously, and keep in mind the failed social interactions you have today will help you tomorrow.
And also, get the notion of finding your "soul mate" out of your head. Chances are, the person you fall in love with won't check off the "soul mate" boxes you've concocted. Date freely, give everyone a shot and keep an open mind.
[1] I haven't read the book in over a decade, so there is a good chance a lot of the material is dated. But I still stand by the lessons I learned from it.
Nagging is absolutely part of what I was describing, but it's more general. You can also just treat other men in the room as shit and telling to the girl these men are a bunch of pussies and she will love it. Part of it because it's kinda true in some ways... You have to be suble about it tho.
> And davidguetta, if you can figure out how to express the good traits but not the bad ones, you'll find a girl that is not only attracted to you but may actually grow to love you. And what's more, you'll learn to love and respect her and yourself.
Yeah.... well first if you read my message I never said I even WANTED to express bad traits or did it that much beside trying to pick up in bars, nor think it's good. It just works better in the flirting phase, whatever you or I think about.
BTW there's a class of girl where it works particularly well and it's the cliché of the "low self esteem girl"(LSE). It's the kind of girl who thinks / knows she's crazy / stupid and have issues so you can't really NOT be an ass to her because if you treat her as your equal she's going to despise you. ("I suck but he likes me so he must suck too"). I'd recommend running away from these kinda of girls but if you want sex there are a bunch of hot ones among them.
Also I think you should know love and attraction are a lot closer one from the other from what you seem to think...
But once again I'm not particularly interested in having to do that as a man. I'm in a relationship and I explicitly explained to my gf that she should be ambitious, have some fight in her and not take shit from other people or me. I also vaguely explained whole concept of LSE so that she doesn't become one. I have 0 interest in being in a relationship where I can see my gf as someone I respect / vaguely admire. I mean there are women astronauts ffs
It's also a pretty great way to blind yourself to what 'league' you're actually in. A number of my tech friends have wasted an extraordinary amount of time chasing women absurdly out of their league because they've been convinced that "having a decent job", "being well-spoken" and "eating with their mouths closed" somehow puts them in the top 3% of desirable men. Really, no.
Second, go have a life. You know, other activities outside work? Socializing? This is important anyhow. Preferably do activities because you're interested in them and socialize with people you like, not because you're there to "pick up chicks". Nothing is more tiring than dudes relentlessly on the make in every situation.
This isn't guaranteed to work... especially with dire male/female ratios (although not living like a schlub probably evens the odds a bit). And plenty of people are just really unattractive, uncharismatic, whatever. Not sure what to do then.
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