> You know what? I'm glad someone spoke to me that way. It got me up and motivated to work on myself. I can't imagine how poorly I would have turned out if I was coddled and allowed to stay in bed and read about all of these new pop-psych diseases I could blame. But that's just me. Maybe I can reach someone the way I was reached.
I think that is the problem. Maybe it is just you. The language you use, coddling, and how you speak of mental diseases as if it's some made up thing suggest maybe you weren't going through what others are going through.
> Maybe I can reach someone the way I was reached.
I doubt it. I read your first comment and then the edit, and thought maybe you'd come to your senses, but no. You do lack empathy and understanding. You sound very like your not trying to reach some one, instead, you're trying to tell them how it is from your point of view. No empathy. People actually suffering don't need that from you.
>But I suspect that is rarer than you expect (look at how we went from mental illness in general, to schizophrenia, now to coma patients).
I think it's relatively common for people with mental illness to end up in a situation they themselves can't recover from, and my examples were hyperbolic as you seemed to deny the very existence of such people. They generally recover with help from those close to them, medical experts, and government support.
>Unless you’re intimately familiar with someone’s situation, how can you judge?
I don't need intimacy with anyone's situation, all I said was that some portion of the 30,000 incidents of mental illness could not control their disorders and would need help.
>I’ve found it more helpful to focus on how one can succeed, whether for myself or loved ones
I'm guessing my post was misunderstood, as here you seem to be trying to help others rather than forcing them to accomplish it by willpower alone.
>I don't understand why people think I'm against helping people.
For the purpose of trying to fill in that knowledge gap, let me say that as someone that just casually browsed the comments, you originally came across as tone-deaf and disconnected from reality. After the comment attempting to dismiss mental disorders, you came across as actively malicious.
If you're serious about just trying to help people, try harder than telling them to work harder on a forum almost exclusively populated with well-off professionals.
I don't know your personal journey, but I think it would be fairly easy to find people with very deep, very real mental health problems who fully believe they do not have a problem.
> The pills didn't do anything for me
Again, I don't know your personal journey, but as a counter anecdote when I started taking medication I couldn't tell if they were having any effect at all, but apparently it had such an effect that some of the people around me could tell me the day I started taking it, along with measurable improvements.
Not to invalidate your experiences, just adding to the anecdotal pool
> To become critical of me or my understanding shows how little you have learned from your experiences.
That's just an attempt to shield yourself from any kind of external perspective.
> Depression comes from the same place as your judgement of others.
Glad you, on your own, have managed to solve remotely a problem that is a complex combination of multiple traumas, PTSD, neurochemical issues and psychological ones.
Or more likely, you've lost all sympathy from me in this response as you've revealed just low little your personal experiences have fundamentally changed in your ability to extend and practice empathy, and therefore the very limited extent to which your experiences retain value in the bigger scheme of things in this discussion.
> I just tend to be a little on the defensive about it
Completely understandable! Most people seem to have such a frustrating inability to understand that other people can have very different experiences of the world to their own, and that those experiences aren't wrong.
I am lucky enough that most of my friends do understand mental illnesses a bit better than the average person out there. Some of them who confided their mental health problems with me about the kind of reaction they tend to get, and it's just amazing how ignorant the natural state of the human mind is.
> that I’m taking the “easy” way out through medication.
Call me crazy, but I partially blame the dualist world view of the Western world for that, even if most people aren't even aware that they have been raised with a dualist mindset. This whole mind/matter division makes people think that mental problems have to be solved by thinking.
> You don't know me; and you almost certainly haven't seen the personal affects of depression up close like I have.
I have, actually. The person I care about did not have any substantial pre-depression experience with mood altering substances, prescription or otherwise, but post-depression treatment with antidepressents has been a huge help to them and, indirectly, to me and the rest of my family. Nevertheless, I do have a pretty good guess as to what your experience has been like.
My post was intemperate, to say the least. Your post struck a nerve with me and provoked a reaction that was undeserved. I've had to deal with one too many "depression isn't real" and "people just want happy pills" attitudes in the past and it's apparently caused my reading comprehension to suffer. I painted with far too broad a brush and you have my sincerest apologies.
> They don't necessarily have control over their disorder, and are unable to change themselves alone.
As someone who has dealt with serious, chronic health issues for a decade, I truly hate this attitude.
I don't necessarily have full control over my health issues, but I'll be damned if you tell me I am unable to take actions to change myself and my situation.
Yes, I much prefer messages that emphasize my personal agency, which your well-intentioned message actively denies.
This is a tight-rope to walk: sick people have limitations and one should acknowledge them, but repeatedly asserting their utter helplessness is also a form of shaming and encourages them to stop trying.
> The fact that you don't realize you are being offensive is just so... chef's kiss.
I'm certain that you're offended by my statements, but only because of your aforementioned arrogance. Telling unqualified individuals to seek help from qualified individuals about matters regarding mental health isn't offensive. I'm sorry that I don't have the faith in random unqualified individuals that you do.
> Please continue your crusade against negligence elsewhere. You've added absolutely nothing here.
I ended our conversation previously and you chose to revive this discussion. You're welcome to see yourself out whenever you're ready.
No. Your point is ill-informed, banal, and frankly, just plain offensive. You're incredibly ignorant and I hope you don't interact with anyone who suffers from depression because blaming people with a disease for suffering from that disease because of a personal moral failing is disgusting. You're gross. The things you say are gross. Stop saying them.
I am so sorry to hear that. Have you discussed these thoughts with your psychiatrist? I am sure that she has an arsenal of prescriptions to treat you with.
On second thought, during your weekly runs to the pharmacy for a stack of frozen pizzas and a fistful of prescriptions, your 16-hour workdays and 12 hours on social media consuming rage, fear, and paranoia, did you ever stop to think that there's a better way?
Have you considered eating an organic apple once in a while? 30 minutes of meditation, clearing your mind and listening to your Higher Power? What about disconnecting from the Internet and your phone for a few hours a week, at least? Getting outside, taking a walk, making some Vitamin D?
Sometimes the best cures are perhaps not as easy as popping a few pills; they're not subsidized by your insurance company, and they require forming better habits, but they are truly efficacious and have long-lasting, proven effects. Those are effects that are proven by science, by knowledge, by experience.
> listing off traumas to some woman who bills for speaking to me
I think you would benefit greatly from a different kind of treatment, with an antipsychotic. Your comments remind me so much of a brilliant person in my family who was able return to his high-level FAANG job after beginning antipsychotic treatment.
Yes I would absolutely tell that to a depressed person. And I have said it. I was depressed for a decade. And yet people spoke to me this way, because that's life. I was on antidepressants. I took care of my problem(s) and I still got my job done while struggling, medicating, and going to therapy. A big part of therapy was learning to separate "them" from "me" in my internal dialog.
You know what? I'm glad someone spoke to me that way. It got me up and motivated to work on myself. I can't imagine how poorly I would have turned out if I was coddled and allowed to stay in bed and read about all of these new pop-psych diseases I could blame. But that's just me. Maybe I can reach someone the way I was reached.
However, you are conflating two completely unrelated things. I am not responsible for your internal mental state, nor is anyone responsible for mine. This is a crucial skill that I believe is sorely lacking.
> Thank you for this link. this seems right up my alley - I'm trying to avoid being an uninformed critic.
You're welcome, thanks for responding.
> i've had bad experiences in my life with psychiatry, been in and out of the system since i was 12 and witnessed a LOT of ... let's say bad practices.
Having seen the inside of this world (as a visitor), I can sort-of imagine what you've been through. People do have problems; the system knows not that it does not always help.
> do you have any other suggested reading / sites for someone in my position?
depends on what you're interested in. I switch to this account whenever I have something to say about mental health, so there might be some other links there. (I just surveyed my comments, there aren't too many. I post the link to Robert Whitaker's work fairly regularly, but there are a bunch of others. They depend on the context...)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11974769 - this has a link about the monopolists' approach to medicine. I posted that comment from my phone, and didn't feel like fishing out the full link. But the article is quite helpful for illuminating the source of bias in the "Medical" world.
>So you also magically deduced that the author of that post had depression out of nowhere?
OP stated it no less than four times already. Quotes:
1) I feel ashamed of being that guy who is always depressed
2) The saddest thing is that nobody seems to understand having depression is not my choice
3) I don't want to be depressed no more than anyone else
4) I don't want to be that person of which everyone thinks as depressed, it hurts
He also mentioned being on anti-depressants. Presumably those were prescribed by a doctor.
Your conversational style in this thread feels driven more by anger than a desire to help or learn.... so I'm going to bow out of conversing with you. Best of luck.
> There is some segment of the population that would pity your perspective as the disillusionment of an abused spouse. I don't. I get it.
Thanks, I often wonder if this is healthy practice myself as it can be rather personally-abusive to be so mission-centric, but then I see the consequences of the alternative: consider how many people in the US alone consume psychotropic drugs just to cope with depression despite having access to so much of everything but being so inherently listless and distracted.
I won't bemoan about the pitfalls about the Human Condition, but I will say that despite the hardships and loss I still see this as a worthwhile endeavor and wish to be part of it all, especially when you understand the implications it may have for the Species if we get this right.
Which right now as we're seeing the blow-back of something significant (albeit minor in the grand scheme of outbreaks) like Coronavirus is really alarming.
>Then some jerk like you will come along and make that sufferer feel worse
That's absolutely ridiculous. Its absurd to deny reality to preserve people's feelings. One can acknowledge that mental illness is a form of weakness without treating people poorly. The problem doesn't come from the fact that people consider mental illness as a form of weakness, but from the fact that mental illness makes people less resilient to life's trials.
Pretending there's nothing wrong with being mentally ill doesn't do anyone any favors; in fact I'd argue it's worse than acknowledgement as it may discourage treatment at least as much as the current stigma.
I think the only one being a jerk here is you. Perhaps your definition of weakness needs adjustment, since you seem to conflate it with choice.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you have. You're browsing reddit all day and seem unmotivated.
You need to speak to a therapist and consider medication. This is not a troll post, I promise - I'm stuck in the same hole as you right now. A breakdown last year that's given me a real sense of depersonalization.
> And, no I don't have to be careful about saying things like this. I think it's an extreme failure of our modern society to side with those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems (ie, brain damage) compared to vast majority of people that simply have emotional damage, something that can be overcome with personal responsibility and having a reason to change.
So while I applaud your story of overcoming 'grumpiness' and 'sugar addiction', it's laughably less serious than those living with debilitating mental disorders and hard drug addictions which you seem to pass off in your writing as something you would be able to overcome with the same ease.
Perhaps you are a statistical outlier with a super powerful mind or DNA code to pull that off. But the main issue is that you've invalidated the whole spectrum of people suffering from depression and drug addictions as nothing more than a lack will power, will offend a lot of people, including those that volunteer their time, studied the subject or have experienced drug addictions in their past.
It's very easy to assume everybody is like you. It's also easy to view everything in absolutes. It's difficult to keep an open mind and accept everything is relative at first but eventually with enough life experience you will learn to put yourself in other peoples shoes, which ironically seems to me one possible explanation behind your grumpy nature. I found it peculiar that you had to convince your own daughter who initially did not feel you had changed at all (I didn't get that vibe from reading your comment). Usually, others notice if you did change without you announcing it if it's genuine.
I hope that you can maintain your 'grump free' attitude towards your family and continue your path to improving. I just wish that after some time, you will see your faults about making blanket statements about people with mental disorders and addictions after beating such a dangerously addictive substance like white sugar.
I think that is the problem. Maybe it is just you. The language you use, coddling, and how you speak of mental diseases as if it's some made up thing suggest maybe you weren't going through what others are going through.
> Maybe I can reach someone the way I was reached.
I doubt it. I read your first comment and then the edit, and thought maybe you'd come to your senses, but no. You do lack empathy and understanding. You sound very like your not trying to reach some one, instead, you're trying to tell them how it is from your point of view. No empathy. People actually suffering don't need that from you.
reply