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Maybe options. I know a lot of people play OTM options and penny stocks as gambling.


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And if it's not gambling, it's investing.

No it is not 'literally gambling'. They have a legitimate purpose for risk management.

Ofcourse if you know nothing about risk management, options, or finance in general, you can just use them as a gambling instrument.

Robinhood and others have been irresponsibly pushing options onto clueless individuals.

I'm concerned this will lead to more regulation, taking away this option for us commoners and leaving it to only the 'responsible educated betters' who run hedge funds and such.


Depends what you want to do, I'm about 98% in plain old, boring index-tracking ETFs.

But sometimes I want to take a bit of money to make some stupid bet. Yes, to gamble. And for that purpose, often having the leverage is a good thing.

The way I see it, the bets are much more entertaining than those at casinos and with better odds. Maybe it's just me, but I find casinos incredibly boring, but gambling on the market can be quite interesting.


Or poker or financial markets.

If you are doing much other than value investing long term you are gambling.

Don't be so sure. The penny stock market is alive and well. People love to gamble.

All investments are gambling to at least some extent.

When is something investing rather than gambling?

There are many venues to gamble your money. You could also go for meme/penny stocks.

I personally have only Bitcoin and some small amount of ETH. I don't consider myself a gambler and think that these smaller cryptocurrencies are very far away from Bitcoin, which is very stable and safe these days as the toolset is quite developed.


Gambling is when you take big risks with hope for a big payoff. It’s possible to invest in the stock market and limit risk by diversifying and hedging positions, but how many meme stock investors are doing that? It’s much more likely to see people yoloing their life savings on Tesla or GME and hoping to retire from the windfall. Not going to be pretty if stocks ever go down again.

I fully agree with your casino comment.

And how about day traders and individual "investors" trying their luck with options?


I see them as side bets on the stock market.

What about “gambling” in the financial markets? Want that $1.50 call on GameStop earnings? Bets come in all shapes and sizes, including Wall Street bets.

All investment is gambling. You’re betting that the stock will go up if you’re long and that you can sell it for more in the future than when you bought it. Call options just allow you to leverage more as do put options.

Your own statement just agrees with me. Investing and trading is gambling, but if you hedge properly you’re able to control the odds of success a bit better than you can at say a craps table.


i believe all stock and futures trading, and any investment done on speculation is essentially gambling. even real estate investment can be considered gambling.

A good start, but I want to add more.

This may seem unrelated, but there's a difference between poker and slots. Both are "gambling", but one has a performance effect and one doesn't: if you're good at poker, you can make money at it (of course, many people lose). With slots, there's no skill. If it's viewed entertainment, fine; but don't think it should take a major place in your lifestyle because it's just going to lose you money. Playing slots is not a sound financial move. For some (top ~2% of poker players) poker is.

I'll get back to that.

Now... let's say that you're a typical 28-year-old programmer making $120,000 per year in a cushy corporate job. Your financial advisor comes to you, one day, and tells you that you should invest $30,000 of your annual income in penny stocks. Not only that, but it's a single and illiquid penny stock, with tax implications you don't fully understand. Oh, and the company issuing it is your employer and has about a 20% first-year chance of firing you without severance ("for performance" because tech startups never do an honest layoff; they'd rather hurt your reputation than theirs by admitting contraction) and invalidate your investment (called "cliffing") outright. That's your financial advisor's proposal: buy illiquid penny stocks from your boss.

What would you do? You'd fire the fuck out of that financial advisor, that's what you'd do.

Yet there are plenty of people who'd work for $90,000 (instead of the $120,000) plus "equity" whose expected value is much, much less than $30,000-- maybe $10-15k at-valuation, from the perspective of VCs who have a much higher risk tolerance, who also get control of the company and preferred shares in the deal.

It's a shit deal. Don't take it.

Now, back to poker vs. slots. If you're a founder, your equity holding (which is likely substantial, unlike typical employee bullshit) is more like poker, because your performance at your job can have a macroscopic effect on the company. Your ability and performance directly affect your payoff (of course, there's a lot of luck, too). You're still gambling in the abstract sense that everything (even driving) is a gamble, but you're taking bets on yourself, which any self-respecting person would do.

If you're an engineer or, really, anyone outside of the top O(N^0.25) executives, you're playing slots because nothing you do will have a real effect on the macroscopic performance of the firm. You're betting on people and factors over which you have no influence. Even whether you get that full that 4 years or are fired first is (let's be honest here) outside of your control.

Employee equity is a nice-to-have for an otherwise good job paying a market salary (if not above-market, to account for startup risks) but it doesn't justify taking the kinds of pay cuts involved at most of these startups.


Gambling implies a truly random outcome which is why Poker is a game of skill as is arguably horse racing :-)

If you can identify an temporary overhang on a particular share you can make money as the discount narrows as I have done with Witan I also made a lot on Electra private equity as it was targeted by an activist investor and they realised some of their PE investments


Index funds are much lower risk. I would not call them gambling.

There is no question a public stock becomes a plaything for sophisticated gamblers.
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