I started my comment out with “ Not that it justifies our behavior” and referred to similar actions by both China and America as bad behavior. Bad doesn’t justify bad, and only provides a measure of irony.
Once again, I’m disappointed in how quickly the comments on these articles about China doing horrible things devolves into defense of America. It’s sort of like a reverse whataboutism.
Ideally learning about what bad things other countries are doing would allow us to look at what similar things we do in our own country and then work to improve things. Instead the opposite seems to happen, and we actually draw a line under our current policies while saying “well, at least here...”.
Other people doing horrible things is not justification for us to do less horrible things. Conversely, because we do bad things doesn’t mean we can’t criticize the bad things others do. On the other hand, we are in a much better position to change things in our own country than in foreign countries.
I’ll end my commment by repeating that what China is doing here seems like a step in the wrong direction, and is not something we should be defending.
I’m very sure. Do you actually have an issue with the substance of what I said? Obviously I’m not going to link you to all my online accounts to prove to you whether I’ve sufficiently criticized the US.
I’m going to very briefly reply to your second point, because I don’t think you’re discussing in good faith. Whether or not the US does something wrong is irrelevant to the rightness or wrongness of China’s actions, because I don’t think the US is some sort of Platonic ideal of a perfect state. My thought process is not: US good, China different, therefore bad.
Nothing that the US or any other country has done justifies China’s actions. This isn’t a contest to see who’s worse. Your entire argument here is tangential to the fact that China’s actions have been ridiculously abusive.
Has my own country done some despicable things? Yes. Is it still doing despicable things? Yes. That doesn’t mean I have no right to point out abuse elsewhere. Abuse is abuse; to the victim, it makes very little difference whether it’s one government or another. If abusive actions come to my attention, the absolute least I can do is condemn them.
I don't understand. You either think it's legitimate to call out bad behavior (US or Chinese) or you think doing so is disingenuous pearl-clutching. Is it only pearl-clutching when it's about the far worse behavior of the Chinese gov't? Or are you advocating for a constant apologizing for US misdeeds any time another countries' misdeeds are raised, even if that other countries' are far worse...?
What I’m saying is that “we’re doing this bad thing to further the greatness of China” is a justification for what’s going on, not an explanation. I mean, if a thief took your wallet, would you believe them when they explained that they did so for safekeeping?
Every country has done immoral things. Nobody is denying that. What we are saying is the US is leagues above China. Any bad action done by the US has a similar action by China. Bombings, wars, false arrests, etc. The difference is the US is trying to move on and better itself while China is continuing with this behavior.
No, it makes sense because my values are good and I happen to be American.
This is exactly my point. You’re saying “because the US has done bad things in the past, it has no moral standing to do good in the future”. A lot of bad happened in the Middle East, some parts caused by the US, so that means we can’t ban the evils of China in our country and minimize their harms abroad?
Try this: focus on increasing the good in the world. Don’t be hamstrung by “well the US has done bad things before”. “We can’t do good anymore because we’ve done bad before” is not a valid argument. And no, none of this makes China equally good.
It’s not your job to weigh all the countries of the world on some balance to decide who’s been the most good. That’s that detached observer mindset again, and it does nothing but occupy your mind and sap your agency while bad things continue. Your job is to increase the good in the world. If you don’t care to do so, then get out of the way
People are right to criticize China for it and just as right to criticize the US for similar faults. We should behave better and encourage others to do the same.
The whole point I'm making is that we don't need to pull in comparisons. We can make statements about behavior that we find unacceptable, and try to build consensus that we don't want to see those behaviors anywhere in the world. If you point me to an instance of the US doing those things I will condemn it. If you point me to an instance of China doing those things, I will condemn it. And I hope that this is true of most people across the world, and if it isn't then that is where the interesting conversations are to be had, not in which of two world powers is the most detrimental.
Given the difficulties of talking about human rights and the natural tribalism of people on all sides, let's talk about specific behaviors most of us can agree are bad, regardless of who does them, and join together in condemning specific instances of those behaviors wherever they take place in the world.
That the US does bad things does not invalidate the bad things China and Russia do. You sound like someone who gets a speeding ticket and answers "but everyone else is speeding too! Why do you punish me?!"
I agree with the parent that the issues you show are not comparable with what is happening in china. Of course US as a country did many wrong things, for instance the treatment of native Indian people in 1800s was directly comparable to what is happening in china now.
But the bad things a country did do not reduce its right of truthfully pointing out bad things other countries are doing.
Agreed. My comment was a response to somebody who basically said "why should the US do anything when China is worse." Others attacked the (bad) argument, I attacked the (bad) assumption.
Right but there’s a difference between “X is bad because China is the one doing X” and “X is bad for reasons A, B, C that would also apply if it were not China doing X”
I don't understand. Are citizens of countries that do bad things not allowed to point out issues in other countries as well? I'm more than aware of, at least some of, the bad things the US has done and in some cases is still doing. I get mad and voice my dissatisfaction with those issues as well. I don't think any of that prevents me from doing the same for other issues globally. I can think what the US is doing is horrible and think what China is doing is bad as well. Your first two paragraphs are basically just saying "US does it too".
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