My comment wasn't specific to TikTok, but rather OP's assertion that the U.S. is a hostile actor, whereas China is just being China.
Regarding TikTok, foreign-owned companies must follow U.S. laws, which are subject to due process. Additionally, they must not pose an imminent threat to national security. For better or worse, the government tends to be tight-lipped about matters of national security and isn't compelled to divulge details to the public. Normally, this is acceptable because we trust our government to act responsibility and in our best interest. Is TikTok a legitimate threat to security? I don't know, and with Trump's tendency to make everything look like a publicity stunt, my trust in the government to use its power responsibly is not very high.
We now know that as a practical matter, American companies do cooperate with the US government in spying, influence operations, etc., and that the US government has a massive surveillance apparatus that is highly opaque and beyond the control of the American public.
That's why the sudden concern about TikTok theoretically being a problem comes across as an excuse for going after yet another Chinese company, as a way to pressure China and hamper its development.
This article downplays the very real risks of allowing TikTok to operate in the US without significant congressional oversight.
Chinese companies operate as effective extensions of the Chinese government, which is to say that Xi can at any time choose to do anything he wants with TikTok users in the US with no oversight whatsoever. The CEOs of Chinese companies say this is not true, but they are lying. If they told the truth, they and their families would simply disappear. They so far have not flexed this power significantly, but if a conflict with China were to occur it's extremely naive to think Xi would not use this power unilaterally and very effectively to destabilize the US.
Content on TikTok can cause serious real world harm - there are numerous examples, like the Kia carjacking trend, students coordinating to harass teachers & mass group organizing to create chaos in the US. These are only a tiny fraction of what China could do if they wanted to.
If these types of things were happening on Facebook to where the US govt felt that national security was at risk, Mark Zuckerberg and his leadership team can be hauled in front of Congress and held to account. If they broke the law (or even if they didn't), they can strip them of their position, confiscate their property and fortunes and throw them in jail. This is good - it keeps everyone in line.
The same cannot be said of TikTok - Xi is obviously not going to show up to the congressional summons or cooperate.
The best analogy I can think of is this:
At the height of the cold war, if Russia came along and said "yeah we're going to install TV sets in the home of every American and broadcast anything we want" the US government would laugh them out of the room. Yet that's exactly what's been allowed to happen with TikTok, but on an even more severe scale.
While I am justifiably wary of any govt having undue influence on content, the US govt needs to have full jurisdiction over any foreign owned property with that level of reach in the US. Allowing it to continue is extremely unwise and both Trump and Biden administrations see the risk.
I just don't see the issue. This isn't how US companies want to be treated, even when the US govt is acting badly. TikTok doesn't appear to be uniquely different.
I also struggle to view China as an adversary. US and China are each other's number one trading partners. We are allies. Why not try to build on that productive relationship?
If TikTok were a Canadian, British, French, German, Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese company, the US government wouldn't have intervened in the first place. It's mainland China that concerns people and governments.
I agree about the contradictions and hypocrisy but the answer can be much more pragmatic:
> As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?
There's problems with US big tech and TikTok but the case against TikTok is easier to push through.
There's nothing wrong with patching the first of many holes in your roof and starting with the one easiest to get to.
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My primary emotional and ethical driver is to point out my own government (the US) not living up to its marketing material, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't support eliminating a vector for another (openly autocratic) government to meddle with my country as well.
Edit: distinguish my reply to prior comment from my ramblings about my reply.
There's an important difference between a Chinese company and a company controlled by the CCP.
Unfortunately, as long as the CCP rules China all Chinese companies will fall under the supreme control of the CCP.
Note how the article doesn't mention the CCP, it talks about China and the Chinese "government" like if we are dealing with Canada or UK and not with an authoritarian regime, supporter of pariah states like Putin's regime and hostile to America and its allies.
The argument that TikTok is not doing anything worse than any other American social media app is tiresome.
We don't need to deny the fact that American social media companies are abusing loopholes in our justice system to harm American citizens, to recognize that a massive surveillance system deployed by a dictatorship, geopolitical adversary and military power like the CCP on American soil via social media platforms like TikTok represents a much greater thread to our institutions and national security than anything Meta, Google or any other American company could be acussed of doing.
> TikTok is not a national security problem, no more than Whatsapp or Telegram or Skype is a national security problem.
Yeah, you don't actually know that. What we don't know is the most consequential for us. China is ambitious and is clearly engaged in a long game against the US.
We should watch our backs, no apologies necessary.
You are displaying a level of paranoia about the Chinese government that is clearly unhealthy. When US apps are facing legislation abroad that would ban them or regulate them
in unfavorable ways they also notify their users. Take a step back and ask yourselves what the multinational company TikTok would do when facing a ban in one of its most profitable markets. Probably rally their users to oppose it.
The Chinese government
and the US government exert their influence over companies in the same way -- regulation, backdoor conversations asking them to kill/mute stories, and NSL type requests. There's not some
government propagandist sitting at a switchboard. In fact it's the "West" that goes above and beyond with an entire technical apparatus to real-time mass censor social media to "protect democracy." If you don't consider every US company to be a direct arm of the US government but do for China then it's because your feeling about China than your feelings about social media manipulation.
It is in China's interest to avoid divestment because TikTok is a successful company making China money. And now it's in their interest to avoid divestment to not get bullied by the US gov't. If TikTok had the power you and others in this thread ascribe to them they would be more successful at swaying public opinion.
Please explain why TikTok is "owned and controlled" by the Chinese government.
TikTok is just as much "owned and controlled" by an adversarial state as any app by US corporations is "owned and controlled" by the US government due to national security letters and the CLOUD Act.
I think there is also the impression that, even if china has not already been leaning on TikTok, if they ever did TikTok would necessarily relent. Whereas in the US we have examples of companies (e.g. apple) denying requests from the Feds.
Now I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but I think that is where the concern is coming from.
TikTok is a black box and so it is not really possible for people on the outside to know what it does behind the scenes. The lack of transparency and the ties to the CCP are indeed a national security threat to other countries. I recall reading analysis that showed very skewed representation of different keywords on TikTok compared to other platforms. I have trouble believing that this is actually organic and balanced. I think it is much more likely that it is a result of manipulation - how TikTok increases or reduces certain views. China has a tool that’s perfect to create political chaos in rival countries - I doubt they would pass up the opportunity to abuse it. I also find it suspicious that ByteDance would rather shut down TikTok than allow its sale (https://www.reuters.com/technology/bytedance-prefers-tiktok-...).
Let’s also not forget - China does not allow American social media to operate in their country. When trade is allowed, access to their market is highly controlled - for example Tesla being forced to use Baidu for mapping. TikTok can and should be banned on the grounds of this free trade issue, leaving aside privacy and national security problems.
This is one thing that always perplexes me, so since you seem to be one of the people that are concerned by this I ask you why? What do you believe china will do with the info gleaned from TikTok data?
Personally I am more afraid of my own government than I am of china, See my government has the power to put me in a cage, or even kill me if I defy them. They have a the power to unilaterally declare an "emergency" to put me under house arrest, they have the power to close my business at will....
If china attempted to any of these things to me here in the US that would be an act of war, but when my own government does it that is perfectly acceptable and even endorsed by the courts of this land
Tiktok and their relationship with CCP is something anyone can see plainly. I mean, if the US government was installing implants (snowden leaks) at US tech companies, if you disagree with my first statement then you must believe China is an even more free society than the US.
The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how precious and priceless the peace, stability and prosperity we have now (not decades ago but today) is. Americans just simply don't know the levels of poverty and desperation much of the world has seen, it is just impossible here. They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans).
The world is not a nice place, the CCP is much worse than putin and their goal is not to coexist with the west.
And if tiktok ends up giving the CCP an advantage, whether in the 2024 elections or future cold/hot conflict with the PLA, I for one would lay significant blame on HNers who rallied against Biden's attempt to block tiktock because of b.s. slipperly slop fallacies. They already ban US social media there! This would have been reciprocal, it might have been one of the smallest things that could have been done to avoid possible chaos and carnage in the future. The government does have power to censor foreign companies's speech. Matter of fact, the first amendment does not apply to companies, it applies to people, and no one who uses tiktok would be prevented from using another platform to make the same speech!
This about tech companies and startups worried about "what if I am next".
Your opinions have consequences because people consider many of you on HN knowledgable or experts in tech.
TikTok specifically has ties to the Chinese state apparatus that are concerning, similarly to Huawei. This isn't a blanket statement about Chinese companies in general - just those companies in particular. Specifically, this means these companies' products are likely to be tools of PRC state intelligence and the PRC's foreign-policy directives. The same cannot be said about other Chinese companies and similarly positioned companies in other countries.
This wouldn't be as big an issue if the PRC was a NATO ally, or least had a reputation for government transparency and accountability - and wasn't asserting ridiculous territorial claims - and didn't have an egregious human-rights record - and wasn't actively suppressing freedom-of-expression - and so on. Take away a couple of these issues and TikTok's suspicious business conduct over the past few years would be about the same level as scummy American Freemium game makers. I stress that (and despite appearances) I'm trying not to make a Sinophobic argument.
At the same time, I recognize that companies in China need to integrate themselves with the CCP/PLA/etc in order to succeed in that market.
Speaking personally, here's why TikTok concerns me: TikTok is a Chinese business, and China has shown no limit to how much it will meddle in the affairs of and even take control of Chinese businesses for the furthering of the Chinese state's agenda.
Simultaneously, TikTok has captured the daily attention spans of millions of Americans, many of them especially young and impressionable. They've captured their attention in the form of a black box algorithm that promotes content in whichever way TikTok deems most appropriate.
These two facts mean that the Chinese government now has direct access to the brains of millions of young Americans, with zero oversight. Imagine China subtly promoting videos to create outrage and civil unrest in the US, or to feed anti-US propaganda to germinate terrorist groups in the US. These might sound like far flung possibilities, but I think it's hard to say what a country that views the US as its enemy (politically, economically, philosophically) might do with that kind of power, and I don't think we can wait to find out.
It's surprising to see people in the US defend tiktok without realizing what's actually going on behind the scenes. Every company that does business in China, especially if hugely successful, will have the government step in to intervene and spy.
Regarding TikTok, foreign-owned companies must follow U.S. laws, which are subject to due process. Additionally, they must not pose an imminent threat to national security. For better or worse, the government tends to be tight-lipped about matters of national security and isn't compelled to divulge details to the public. Normally, this is acceptable because we trust our government to act responsibility and in our best interest. Is TikTok a legitimate threat to security? I don't know, and with Trump's tendency to make everything look like a publicity stunt, my trust in the government to use its power responsibly is not very high.
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