I don't think you can secure a decent life by programming outside of US - if this is understood as position of comfortable financial independence.
I'm a programmer, my income is in the top 10th percentile, but that just means I'm in the upper middle class with the privilege to pay more taxes. I need to work until I get to retirement to secure myself financially.
I know at least some programmers who have moved to Third World countries. In Indonesia, for example, you can live like a prince for about $1000 a month. Then work remote for US based companies. Your North American resume and cultural knowledge allows you to still charge a decent rate for your skills. But your cost-of-living is minuscule. It’s a decent option for many young people to consider.
I don't think I care about salary so much especially when I hear that the other countries have a better social safety net. As a software engineer I am confident I can make decent pay for the area. I am not looking to send my kids to private school or avail a world class surgeon or have a beach house or make millions. I just want a good happy middle class life writing code and without a lot of hustling. And somehow the US does not seem very conducive to that.
If you don't mind living over seas, you can have a pretty high standard of living for much less. Based on my off the cuff calculations, I think a person with a decent programming job could save enough in 5 or so years (with frugal living) that they could live overseas off the interest. If true, this is much more guaranteed path to financial freedom than a startup. Just an option to consider.
I have lived, worked and paid taxes in Denmark, the UK, the USA (Washington D.C.) and Australia. I am absolutely blown away by how out of touch you and others are from the reality of people struggling to survive in the USA compare with other rich nations. Having the intelligence, interest and family support needed to learn how to program is in itself a huge privilege. One that I benefited from myself. However the difference is that I am grateful for it and know how privileged I am. The difference is that I don't use it as a hammer to attack the people who are less fortunate.
Yeah, but remote work is also a thing. This is why I'm planning to move to a country with a stronger currency and retire to somewhere where it's weaker. I could live a very good life with the same amount of money that would afford me an OK life in other parts of the world. Without having to fear being persecuted by LEO.
Oh boy, wish I could move to the U.S. and have something near your actual income.
I'm on my thirthies, married with an almost over the minimum wage stuck web dev job on Brazil :/
If you're in the US, and are a programmer, your savings are way way too low for your age. It means you either haven't been changing jobs often enough, getting massive raises every time, or you spend too much.
If you're a US citizen, consider finding a well paid hourly remote job, and move somewhere cheap. You can reduce your work hours to literally 1-2 per week, enough to sustain yourself. Europe is quite cheap if you avoid big cities, Switzerland, and Norway. Most of Asia is very cheap except Singapore and Japan. There's also Africa, South America, and a gazillion island nations.
So, I have a dual citizenship, US and Poland(EU). This allows me to basically work anywhere in the world.
US is still one of the best places to earn a high income as a software dev. I work for non-tech as a full stack dev. Good salary but not FAANG levels. My income is higher than a surgeon in Poland.
If you want to move I would optimize for income. Just grind leetcode and try to get into the highest paying companies. If you earned $300k+ while living way below your means that money would go REALLY far in some of the European countries.
This is my goal anyway. As my net worth reaches somewhere around $3-4 million, I'm going to most likely move back to Poland and buy a house somewhere in the mountains and maybe do some remote dev work for a US based company. Plus, since I am basically more American than Polish and have a good understanding of culture I could do some consulting for Polish companies looking to sell their product in the US.
I guess it really isn't the answer you are looking for. Also, keep in mind most countries have policies and laws that are often not popular with the people.
Living in those types of places shouldn't be the benchmark for living in a first world country. I'm not saying that where I'm living is perfect, far from it. I'm saying that despite the fact that I could make far more money in the U.S as a programmer, I couldn't live there because I wouldn't want to live somewhere that continues to allow this to happen.
Came to work in the US. Have moved back to my home country. But would love to come to US again(A great country, no doubt). A few things that I have noticed.
1. It can be really quite hard to get rich(like crazy rich) as a programmer unless you have a very generous stock grant package. When I mean generous, I mean like really in the upper order of 6 figures. Given tax is going to eat a good bunch of it.
2. Taxes will eat a lot of your salary and bonus. So any dream of making it big out of saving up monthly salary is absurd to a large extent.
3. What makes 2. even more so true is at some point in time you have to buy a home, and take some responsibilities with regards to kids and family. Your savings cache will only decrease.
If you are in the Bay area, rents will eat your ice cream. Buying a home is in the order of >=$1 million. Kids can be expensive if you want them to have a good future. If you want to buy a home, you will lose half your life to monthly payments. Plus comes the regular fear of defaulting on payments in phases of financial crises and job losses. And also be prepared for routine house maintenance expenses and property taxes.
Overall life is hard for immigrants.
But I can imagine it would be the same for US citizens who come from poverty. Education would come at a thick debt on top of which you have to build the above points I mentioned.
Life if pretty much paycheck to the next. Paying monthly installment for car, bills, mortgage etc.
Somethings that I like about the US:- Social security, infrastructure, uniform quality of education, merit and overall values on which the country is built. Overall there is better appreciation for merit and quality than most countries.
If you are in the US you have already made it big by many a definition. You just have to go farther.
Mostly, it sounds like you've just had bad experiences in the past, or you live in a place that makes life harder.
I live in the US, make an average salary for a software engineer, and live an incredibly comfortable life. I'm not going to retire at 30 or own a private yacht, but life isn't the dickensian struggle you present.
I've worked in the USA as a developer. I wouldn't do it again for any amount of money. Money is an imperfect measure of total value. The total value to me of my comfortable home, full medical insurance regardless of employment status, short commuting distance, 7 weeks of paid holiday, well I won't bore you with all the details.
Just the amount of time saved in not having to argue with US medical insurance companies about fully insured bills, is worth it to me. So yes, I'll take civilisation - when I add it all up, I not only earn more here, but I actually have some spare time to spend it in.
This is why I think getting a Green Card and relocating to the US is a bad idea. The idea that I'd have to keep paying crazy amounts of taxes even if I decide to move on with my life five or ten years from now and relocate to Japan or Germany is nuts.
In my opinion working remotely from a nice and affordable country is the best bet for skilled tech workers. Right now the US market is good but maybe in the future the money will be in China. You can work for the same startups from your bungalow in a tropical country instead of having to live over there. Maybe you can rationalize moving there today because of high salaries but that will inevitably change and when that happens you might regret committing to the US.
Being in the US has its advantages, but there are definitely downsides too.
When you're going to look at Max' suggestions you actually stand a better chance at doing that from a country where the cost of living is lower than in the US.
Things like rent-a-coder and the mechanical Turk thrive on that difference in cost of living, it's a cynical form of outsourcing, but it definitely does seem to fill a need.
Russia - and most of the former eastblock - are in between two worlds, the cost of living is fairly high, and the opportunities are less prevalent. That makes for a challenging situation, but I've seen quite a few people overcome those challenges and do very well for themselves.
That is a perfectly reasonable approach. On the other side, working in the tech on the US salary, if not blown on luxurious lifestyle, gives one a good chance of quickly reaching financial semi-independence (say, 3 years of full living expenses in the bank), which can be a powerful feature. My 2c.
I don't live in the US, things are worse in Europe. I don't even make $100k in Europe but my salary is very good for here - I started on ~$40k in London!
But mainly I just want financial security - to own a home (to avoid the constant worry of suddenly having to move) and have some promise of retirement.
Extremely low compared to what? I’m in a competitively paid position as a principle developer for a large London technology company. Not renowned for high salaries, but also not bottom of the market.
Most people I know in basically any other industry make less money pre-tax than I have left over after tax, deductions, rent, and bills. I’m sure I could find things to do with more money, just as anyone can, but I definitely hit the point a while ago where more money would significantly improve my level of happiness.
Given that, why would I pack up my entire life and start over in another country?
I am a white American that majored in History. I am a self taught programmer making $225,000 per year now.
I believe that all countries need to reduce restrictions on the movement of people. Humans should be free to move and live where they want.
I am worried, however, that transitioning away from our current flawed system will have a lot of unpleasant side effects. Many Americans might lose their jobs, simply because others will work for cheaper and probably provide around the same quality.
Additionally our house prices would likely decline as well.
For these reasons I am selfishly concerned about my job prospects, especially since I have to compete against others in my own country, but I will never be given the chance to compete against them in their own country.
I know it's tough to look on the bright-side, but consider this.
You're in your mid-30s, no house, no car, no wife and experience in one of the most saught after and well paying professions in the world! Nothing holding you back from living the dream.
You've got money coming in from your consulting gig, but maybe that isn't what you want to do. You've got a good grasp of the english language, but you mention 'nothing put away for medical', so I assume you're in the USA. I'm also assuming, since you're on HackerNews, that you're interested in start-ups and working on cool tech.
I've got many friends from different parts of the world who would die to be in your shoes. If I wanted to move to the US, I'd be dying to be in your shoes too.
If you're not in one of the tech-hubs now, why not move? It costs too much to move? Companies will pay your moving expensive. Moving to a new city is hard? You bet it is, I've done it twice in the last two years, but what have you got to loose. You can be miserable where you are, or miserable somewhere else.
I'm a programmer, my income is in the top 10th percentile, but that just means I'm in the upper middle class with the privilege to pay more taxes. I need to work until I get to retirement to secure myself financially.
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