I also worked for Apple and I had a very similar experience. Management was brutal and abusive from my immediate manager to all the way up to and including the VP level. For example even though vacation hours were accrued I never got to use them unless I wanted to endure the verbal backlash of abandoning the team and my responsibilities. When the holidays came around the director would email everyone reminding us there's a stipend for working through the holidays but in reality it pays less than our normal salary and was a means to justify not taking time off. A variant of Stockholm syndrome made me appreciate the clever design of having a convenient cash out vacation days button.
In the end the team was meet with a hostile takeover; everyone was merged into another team working on something similar with new management. Meet the new boss same as the old boss. A good number of people ended up leaving the company shortly after that.
One more thing, you can also include me as another data point for getting pay doubled after leaving Apple.
Unlike others, I actually find this story fairly believable.
When I first joined Apple, straight out of college - a good program, top three in the country - I was abused similarly. I joined a team that was on a project behind schedule.
Our manager was a brusque, no-nonsense sort of dude. But he clearly had anger problems. On the team were 2 senior engineers, me, and a junior engineer that had just completed his internship and was on a work Visa.
As the project got closer to the deadline, and the scope increased, the manager got agitated. In our team meetings, he would start yelling at us. People down the hallways would stare at us with those "looks." In our 1:1s he told us we might not have a job if our product doesn't ship on time (we were competing with another internal team to beat them to the punch.)
The two senior engineers decided they'd had enough and quit the team. The manager told us to work overtime (no overtime pay, but we had to for fear of our job). He promised us that if we did it that we would get a month of vacation on him, and that he could secure it for us.
The product released. After countless nights of overtime we did it. Our manager left, our guarantee of a month of vacation evaporated, and for the next three months, us two junior engineers were left on 24/7 primary/secondary on-call for a critical service. It was a nightmare. Calls at 3 AM, 6 AM, on weekends.
Our manager got a promotion and is fairly high up at Apple now.
Horrible experience. I left for a new company that pays me nearly double.
I didn't work at Apple, but at Nest Labs, which was essentially an Apple startup, and this resonates very heavily with me from the abuse I received directly from Tony Fadell for a full year -- mostly essentially around protecting my team from systematic overwork.
I have had almost a half decade to put it behind me and have perspective on it, and it made a better manager.
But the other lesson from this is also that if this starts happening -- drop everything and find a new job -- it is not worth it no matter what.
I worked at Apple Computer long ago and overall, was abused for labor, including no December vacation, expected overtime, and getting me to design the project t-shirt and then not letting me have two of them for my trouble (insult). I was young and dealt with it. I have moved on. I am not surprised by this article.
So you worked at Apple during this timeframe, and had personal experience of this management style? Or you're just regurgitating what you saw in a Reddit post?
My wife -- not a current or ex-Apple employee -- had a very similar experience as this, at a different company and in a different geographical location than Apple.
It's unfortunate that workplace abuse is so easy to do and hard to fix. She called their bluff when they told her they could easily replace her, after she spoke up about the treatment. They were shocked that she would actually leave. I was so proud of her.
FWIW, as an Apple employee I have no idea what the hell he's talking about.
I've worked here 4 years and I absolutely love. my. job. I take days off to work from home whenever I feel like it. We drink at the office on occasion. I'm never harassed for not being constantly online. I don't have endless meetings. I'm constantly praised for the work I do, I get great reviews, with large bonuses.
My impression from reading this article is that he either had a shitty manager (it can happen, Apple's a huge company) or his department wasn't very well-run. (It is customer service, that's never known for being a great environment almost anywhere you work.)
I feel bad for the guy, in a situation he described I would've left too. Fortunately I'm not in that situation, and neither is anyone else I know here. People have their issues with small things but at the end of the day I think everyone I work with loves what they do.
Sadly, you can fill in the blank with any FAANG company with this story. I’ve heard it a thousand times. Toxic management. Sorry you went through that, sorry that was your first taste of engineering out of college. Glad you stuck with it.
It’s a tough spot to be. Do you roll over and do the job your being yelled at to do even though you know any concessions are BS? Or like the senior folks, do you walk? It’s a really hard choice.
Friend of mine worked at Apple in the period between Jobs 1.0 and Jobs 2.0. He described an environment of management 'wolf packs' slowly destroying everything. Stuff like this, guy gets promoted as a manger of a group. Proceeds to force out current employees and replace them with his associates. Then abuse the review process to boost one of those to a higher position in the company. Playing the game right they all move up in 18 to 24 months. All fun and good except the groups they pass through are trashed in the process.
Apple used to give people the week between Christmas and New Years Day off (maybe they still do, I don't know).
I was was part of a startup that a number of Apple engineers went to; over half of our engineering org was from Apple, and were used to having that time off, our management chain was fine with it, and we just took it as part of our startup's culture.
The New CEO, a real sales guy, had different ideas. "I think that people can be really productive during that week." He was adamant that he wanted to see butts in seats, across the company. Engineers? Not special. (We were working until the early hours of the morning, nearly every day).
We were told by our director not to worry about it, and just not show up if we didn't want to. What was he going to do, fire half of his engineers?
Acting like that to your employees is a quick way to make them disappear. Apple was Apple, nothing was going to make them leave, no matter how much of an asshole Jobs was. I would listen to a CEO/Managers tirade once, before I started looking elsewhere. It's only a job.
I really feel bad for this person. It seems like they are used to another workplace culture than the secretive and strict culture of Apple, and they might have committed some social faux pas which tainted their reputation, leading to sabotage from their teammates. Of course that doesn't excuse their behavior.
Additionally, I really hope that they now have learnt to separate themselves emotionally from their workplace. I know that it might've been a stressful (e.g. visa issues), but one should never let themselves get to a point where they cry about a workplace issue in their Christmas/NYE break. It's just a job, after all.
You can put just about any company in the "Apple" role here. A bad manager anywhere can cause a workgroup to turn toxic. I've seen it happen literally everywhere I've ever worked, though luckily only 1st hand at one location. (Actually there was one exception: working at a Barnes & Noble during college. I'd heard horror stories about other locations while I was there, but the store I worked at was run by an extremely good manager who cared for her employees and fostered that attitude in her assistant managers as well. It was also the most profitable store in the region, probably not a coincidence)
Some extra tidbits that didn't make it in because the edit timer ran out:
- Despite the big release and herculean efforts, both of us were paid a fraction of our target bonus. This was the day I decided to move jobs.
- I eventually grew some balls and told Apple to (a) pay me 2.5x during overtime (b) hire SREs for this critical service, or (c) go fuck themselves. They chose (c), which worked alright because our service was pretty stable.
- The primary lesson I learnt is that it doesn't matter if you work hard. Nobody notices, and even if they do you will likely not get anything out of it. Do your job, but don't kill yourself over it. Work-life balance is king.
- Only my first manager at Apple was an asshole. My last manager was a kind and genial person.
Frankly speaking, it sounds the author ended up joining a 'dud' team where the entire team is well steeped with playing politics rather than actually being productive. It happens in large companies and sometimes in small ones as well. How these unproductive teams survive is beyond me but they do.
I hope the Author realizes one thing: Never ever complain to Manager and/or HR in any company about other team member UNLESS they disclose themselves to you that they don't like that person and ask you for your negative input -- even then, keep it almost neutral / slightly negative. And if you do make the mistake of complaining, DO NOT EVER do it over email/chat/anything written -- a simple call / over-the-coffee conversation is more than enough. Based on this fact, its hard for me to fault the Senior Manager / Director / VP at Apple the Author talked about -- once this kind of thing starts, at any company it is expected outcome from Management.
From what I can deduce - the Manager and the violent co-worker were best of friends and Manager was going all out trying to protect that co-worker who was a toxic and non functioning employee. The Manager and co-worker kept on making stupid rules and confrontational policies and the Author kept on thinking she doesn't have any choice and is stuck otherwise she will get deported -- I mean, USA (or any other Country) is not a place where you would end up going in depression over for and start popping mental health pills for while contemplating suicide. I would choose my dignity and sanity even if it meant going back to Yemen or Somalia or somewhere similar. The Author could have simply started applying for jobs in lots of countries for some R&D job or post-doc position and should have left Apple.
I accept your challenge, here's why my comments are relevant:
- This post is front paged on HN, grabbing your attention, mine, and a demographic that skews largely to Apple's core corporate HR need and customer base.
- It is important that the HN community can rely on the comments section to gain insight or nuance that they would not otherwise have from the source material.
- The author works to harm Apple's reputation as an employer and company suggesting one stops buying their products and opt out of their ecosystem etc.
- This central argument, that Apple is an unfair and malicious employer, is in conflict with Apple's objectively industry leading employee retention numbers that I share above.
- The author never discloses that he is/was a retail employee vs. a corporate employee which I think anybody with an understanding of retail employment in general would appreciate to have as a filter to assess his pov.
- Without taking a position of this termination being right or wrong, the evidence above suggests this is an edge-case and is probably not deserving of my or my fellow HN users taking into deep consideration in our opinion of Apple.
- Instead it feels like a well timed piece of negative content that fits into a narrative that several very large and powerful corporations are working hard to try in the court of public opinion. (1)
- - -
And then back to your comment - what lesson or theme are you drawing from a single retail employees one-sided negative experience working within the Apple employee ecosystem? What am I missing? Why is this relevant?
Yeah but with apple you hear people loved working there even if jobs was harsh. Looks like there's a balance between getting the most out of people and just creating a toxic work atmosphere.
In the end the team was meet with a hostile takeover; everyone was merged into another team working on something similar with new management. Meet the new boss same as the old boss. A good number of people ended up leaving the company shortly after that.
One more thing, you can also include me as another data point for getting pay doubled after leaving Apple.
reply