I believe you're projecting a picture you'd like to see. One that is painting the side you consider yourself to be a part of as morally clean and just, while the other side is reprehensible and shameless.
It has little to do with reality, and it's obvious that you haven't spent time with conservatives. It's not useful to only learn about those who think differently from yourself by listening to what those who think like you say about them. Your perception seems heavily based on shrill far left voices. It's essentially a mirror image of what somebody on the far-right thinks about progressives after hearing about what they do/did/want to do by listening to shrill far-right voices.
This is a terrible opinion dressed up in nice writing and this approach is usually used as a tactic by far right conspiracy theorists to recruit people in doubt to their side. The left/liberal/progressive side is not nearly as offensive, manipulative, or fascist as the right/conservatives even in the most extreme cases, and saying so is harmful.
Can you provide a couple of examples of this? In particular, I don't recognize who you're referring to in this section:
> [M]ainstream conservatives literally voted a white supremacist into government. They almost voted a pedophile into government.
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> Sure there are jerks on the Democratic side but we tend to remove them from authority until they've shown appropriate contrition for an extended period of time.
Is it possible that you're seeing this through you own political biases? I freely admit that I generally see the issues with left-wing figures more easily than those on the right, so please don't think I'm being "whataboutist", because that's not my intention at all.
When I read the above, the first reactive thought I had was "What about Ralph Northam? He is in his college yearbook either in blackface or a Klan robe. What about Justin Fairfax? He's been accused of multiple sexual assaults. Both of them are still in their elected positions"
Of course, this isn't to say the GOP doesn't have its own members with serious problems - instead, my point is that it isn't any easier to conflate conservatives with far right extremists than it is to conflate progressives with far left extremists. From where I stand, it seems to be completely a matter of what biases the viewer holds.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant a right-winger that you know in real life, or can find on the street if that is the empty set, not some politician.
"And part of the way the right wing justifies its atrocities is to claim that "both sides do it", "both sides are the same" or some similar flat out bullshit."
Both sides may not be the same, but both sides do do it... because in a lot of ways, they aren't "both" sides but the same side wearing different masks, at that level. That is, again, that high rarified Federal level, not the people on the streets. You're not "seeing through" their game... you are right where they want you to be. You're even strongly suggesting that you're fine if your side does it as long as you get to yell at the other side and dismiss their claims about what "your side" does. Unsurprisingly, "your side" is suited just fine by your willingness to do this, and they take you up on your offer quite often.
The difficulty I have with this is that many right-wing conservatives with radical opinions on everything from the rights of LGBTQ folks to race are trying, desperately, to rebrand themselves as moderate conservatives. In the same way that white nationalists are trying to avoid being called out as White Supremacists.
I'm sure Jonah would like me to believe he is a moderate conservative. The history lesson in Liberal Fascism is laughably inaccurate and built on a poorly thought-out premise. It was an argument made that had never existed before. In a word, I don't have any reason to believe he is any kind of moderate person.
I think what we're seeing with public shaming are dis-empowered people calling a spade a spade.
What I'm curious to see is whether people who have felt this kind of shame will change. Will they re-examine their behavior? Or will they, like the Jonah's of the world, dig in and continue to bloviate about leftist-shame-mongering hordes abusing their free speech? And in the process what happens to the rest of us? Will my kids be shamed and called a f-g when they get to school and end up in a hospital with a fractured skull? Will we ever change?
Even if I concede that there are some on the left who fit your description, the whole point is that left/progressive political philosophy is fundamentally aspirational towards tolerance and inclusivity. Right/conservative political philosophy is fundamentally not.
Sure, you can find some on the left whose speech, writing and behavior don't really align with this analysis. But they are in opposition to the broader political idea(l) they connect with. This is utterly different than the right, where being inclusive and tolerant of difference, out-groups and so forth is fundamentlly at odds with the basic philosophy. Conservatives belive in tribalism. Conservatives believe that even if we are all human, we do not all have enough in common to be able to form a cohesive, coherent society. Conservatives believe that there are good and bad people and that they can identify and assign people to each group.
As someone who is an outsider looking in on this whole situation (someone who both does not live in Silicon Valley and does not live in America), I honestly think the whole place and everyone there is fking insane.
Both sides are seemingly entirely incapable of accepting that people, with all their complexities can have differing view points and not just assuming they are the devil incarnate.
I used to think that I was pretty far-left leaning, but recently, with the attitudes of the so-called progressives, I honestly want nothing to do with these people. How is it that more people aren't terrified that the left has turned themselves into an echo-chamber so against even slightly differing ideals that those who do even slightly go against the norm will have a social-media storm come down upon them to ruin their career and life.
And don't think conservatives are any better. Here is a hot tip for all the conservatives out there - white supremacy and neo-nazi's are not the types of people you want to associate yourselves with. The fact that it's been over 70 years since the end of WW2 and you haven't quite figured that out yet is almost as baffling as the idea that conservatives cannot accept that gun-control does not mean people want to take your guns away, but simply want to make sure that people who would abuse guns can not get them.
Honestly, if the lot of you could start acting like mature adults who can have a reasonable discussion of actual issues without resorting to calling each other names and organizing mobs, the rest of the world that still follow America's example would be thankful.
This post resonates strongly with me. I would consider myself a far-left progressive, supporting single payer health care, free schooling, absolute equal rights for all types of people, breaking up banks, heavy taxes on the rich, complete drug legalization, sane immigration laws etc.
And yet, I find myself attacked regularly and called alt-right or a Trump supporter, which is absurd to me. It's nearly impossible to go into depth and have nuanced discussion about sensitive topics even with people who would probably agree with you if they were just willing to listen. Many people get completely tripped up and misunderstand thought experiments, hypothetical situations, playing devil's advocate, considering whether the "opposition" could perhaps be right on anything at all, or meta-discussion and semantics. Like revolutionary China or McCarthy era USA, you say exactly what they want you to say, or you are a reactionary fascist.
What I've found is that the liberal base has become so polarized and uniform that any slight deviation from the narrative leads to accusation, labeling, and insults. It's like the left has acquired and autoimmune disorder and is attacking itself.
I think you still don’t get what the previous poster was saying. If you (I don’t mean you personally, but the left generally) constantly call a group of people racist and engage in ridiculous histrionics about how they are the cause of all of the world’s problems, they aren’t going to listen to anything else you have to say. They’ll listen to anybody else who doesn’t say those things, even if that person is an obvious idiot and hypocrite. I don’t know that even a simple majority of people on the left really agree with the full “woke” progressive agenda, but you guys do a terrible job of condemning bad behavior directed at folks in “flyover country.”
That's not true. I see moderate right wingers like Jordan Peterson criticising highly fevered left wingers who are clearly extremists. The right that I see is reasonable and the left they talk about is extreme. I suspect it's the same for you but in reverse. You can't judge the whole side by what their enemies mock them for.
I'm a right winger but I still believe in evolution and I don't have a portrait of Hitler on my wall.
You need to read my response in the context of replying to the parent. They stated that the right is uniquely bad at broadly painting the views of the left. I gave an example of the left doing the same thing.
This sounds glib, but it's revealing: if you're not sure what the left wing is, it's you. Just like for extreme conservatives, for whom they and others like them are "just regular people," "Real Americans", you're so immersed in your half of the divide that the left wing is just "reasonable people," "people who don't suck."
The "other side" applies both ways, though. The left has a lot of humor and satire which innately belittles those right wing views (the Onion, The Daily Show, Tom the Dancing Bug, etc).
While I identify largely as a liberal, I do conservatives a disservice by mocking these views in my actual interaction with them. Their views may indeed be based on fear, but treating them not as scared humans deserving of being engaged with as human beings, but as idiots who deserved to be mocked, does just as much damage to reaching them as the rhetoric coming from Trump and the tea party.
I only mentioned what I've witnessed. To say "Many on the progressive or even classic left" is hyperbole. Consider using a specific example instead of hearsay. You don't want people thinking you're a disingenuous shill, do you?
For those who think the parent comment was conflating extreme right and average right, I just want to add some clarification as to why deplatforming still affects large swathes of the population and not just extreme segments.
I’m a strong social and fiscal conservative who never voted for nor liked Trump. I’m religious and that informs my opinions on a lot of social issues. I would be in strange company on Parler, but this still bothers me.
My family are all strong Trump supporters to the point that leaves me shaking my head. Working in technology, I also have a lot of progressive friends and coworkers.
As a racial minority, I think I can say this. There’s a real analogue to the general sentiment that LGBT, POC, or female Americans experience and worry about social or professional consequences to voicing their experiences and opinions and the general sentiment conservatives experience from voicing theirs.
Before you castigate me and say it’s false equivalence, take the good advice of the anti-racism movement and “just listen” to why I feel that way.
This is my personal experience as a POC and as a religious conservative working in tech. Even as a more moderate conservative (e.g., I believe climate change is anthropogenic and the state needs to correct for market failures), I genuinely feel like my voice is being suppressed—that is, my opinions are becoming less tolerable by the mainstream. For example, I have very traditional views about LGBT issues and abortion, but those views are becoming labeled as violent (I don’t believe in any kind of violence, BTW, but just believing that doesn’t accord with mainstream beliefs is considered hurtful and violent), in spite of how I support legislation and personally demonstrate fairness and tolerance for my LGBT friends and am sympathetic to women’s health issues.
There are a lot of people on the right who would do well to listen to BLM and those who feel like their voices are being suppressed. There are a lot of people on the left who would do well to listen to conservatives who feel like their voices are being suppressed. Let’s just have more humility about these things. If you feel like you’re in a morally/intellectually/factually superior position, quit treating people who aren’t as enlightened as the enemy. Treat them with some decency and compassion and listen so you might persuade them instead of berating them about their wrongness.
I think it’s hubris to be so confident in our own positions as to preclude accepting people’s lived experiences (like mine) as meaningful anecdata.
As I continue to feel the shift to fewer and fewer outlets for my voice, I genuinely worry. I blame the extremists on the right, absolutely, but I also blame extremists on the left. At the core I blame the tendency to not listen.
The takes you have posted in this thread aren't moored to reality, and have nothing to do with left vs right wing. I hope these comments influence you to reevaluate things, but I am done engaging with you.
I think the author doesn’t go after the right-wing house of mirrors because it has far less indirection. What veil do you think the right-wing puts up over your eyes that distorts their message? It’s pretty clear what they mean to say, and what they believe.
The mental gymnastics are all occurring on the new left and hyper vain social media stratosphere where true values and beliefs are a muddled mess. Since they are in this amorphous stage, they are vulnerable to solidifying into forms that propagate the status quo.
As someone who has long considered myself a progressive and grew up thinking Bush was a facist(and still agrees) , I cannot think of a time in my life when conservatives acted as oppressively as the current woke left acts.
The grand irony is that you will be relentlessly and ruthlessly attacked for the thought crime of holding that position by the people who's argument is that just those words are oppressive to them.
It has little to do with reality, and it's obvious that you haven't spent time with conservatives. It's not useful to only learn about those who think differently from yourself by listening to what those who think like you say about them. Your perception seems heavily based on shrill far left voices. It's essentially a mirror image of what somebody on the far-right thinks about progressives after hearing about what they do/did/want to do by listening to shrill far-right voices.
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