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my point is that everything should be allowed and the decision should be at a personal level. that’s freedom! literally the definition of freedom. you can do whatever you want as long as you don’t restrict others freedom


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True. you are free to do what you want, except restrict other people's freedom.

Yes, freedom means everybody is allowed to do whatever they want, even if I don't personally agree with their actions and even if some will elect to do stuff harmful to themselves.

My point is more that it has to be a freedom that is limited and not absolute.

Freedom to do whatever you want as long as it does not infringe the rights/freedoms of anyone else.

You have voluntarily restricted your own freedoms, so I’m not sure what we’re arguing about.

I think the point is, freedom is also not free unless you have the right to restrict yourself, with or without option. Freedom includes the right to impose ones own personal restrictions, and not have it imposed upon you from external agency.

Freedom isn’t about being allowed to do _anything_

Good point. Anyway personal freedom is not exactly the same as freedom of choice. I mean you could be personally less free because you have to work a lot making decisions, and still it's you who call the shots.

If one human or group of humans can’t force another to do something, that is freedom. It’s pretty simple really.

You 100% did say that people should think about what their community wants.

But thank you for agreeing with me, and that freedom is doing what you want, and what people around you think shouldn't affect your decisions.


Freedom isn't about people doing things you like. It's about allowing people to do things you don't like.

Call it what you like, but people can't do whatever they want, so it is obvious that freedom is not unlimited.

I define freedom as choice.

You can choose what you want to do rather than being bound to someone else's agenda.


But it's up to the people to decide. That's what freedom is.

Remember that freedom isn’t a resource that a society can have more or less of. Freedom of one person or group always comes with a restriction of freedom of someone else. It’s a delicate balance, not a “do whatever you want” kinda thing.

Yes, precisely. If you have the freedom to do only things that absolutely no one else could take offense from then you do not have freedom.

I say they are personal, because they affect the individual much more than anyone else. Of course everything we do is affecting society somehow, but that does not eliminate personal freedom. If it affects me more than it affects you, my opinion weighs more than your's and vice versa.

My parent made that stretch. I explicitly included other people’s freedom to do the same thing as they want to do in the list of freedoms that their freedom collides with. So call them out.

I agree with your more general point though: framing the entire matter in terms of freedom is detrimental to the debate. However, it’s almost always initially done by the side that wants to retain the status quo.


It's easy if you believe people should be free to live their lives as they want
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