>Some of those are devout anti-vaccination activists but I believe that they are still a relatively small fraction of the hesitant. When not being vaccinated comes with a direct personal cost we'll see how sincere those beliefs are.
I have a friend in this group. There was no logical reason to not get vaccinated, her parents just kept regurgitating all the blatantly false conspiracy theories they were reading on the internet. The amount of times I heard "I'd get it if Bill Gates weren't involved, he's trying to track us" made my head spin.
Now work is requiring it to stay employed, so she's getting it. I'm both sad that's what it took, and happy that it was enough to overcome irrational fear mongering on the world wide web.
I know a three people who are not vaccinated. In all three cases, it's because they are afraid, not because they are selfish.
One reads conspiracy websites and believes mRNA vaccines are a death sentence. Another one was influenced by the former and now doubts they are safe. The last one, independently of the previous, is concerned about the long-term effects the vaccines might have.
I have talked with all of them and tried to reassure them of the safety of the vaccines, to no avail so far.
I was able to convince a fourth to get vaccinated, but again this person was simply afraid, not selfish. If you hope to change their minds, it may be better to address their fears.
>The reason being is most unvaccinated people don’t believe it isn’t effective, they don’t like being forced to protect themselves by a bunch of moral busybodies.
I think this is something that's very understated in public discussion around COVID-19, I got vaccinated because I weighed up the odds and thought it made sense from both a social and a personal cost/benefit perspective. I didn't get vaccinated because I was gaslit into it by the government's "nudges", nor did I get it because I was nagged or shamed into it by other people who can't keep their noses out of other people's business. There's few things I dislike more in a person than a Puritan wagging finger, yet all the messaging around the pandemic was nothing but wagging fingers.
People don't like being manipulated, even if it's "for their own good" or even "for the greater good". People aren't stupid either, they know when authority figures aren't being entirely upfront with them. As well-intentioned as the measures were, the insitutions who imposed them have burned up a lot of public trust in the process with the use of fear and coercion as a tool to manage the pandemic as well as being a bit economical with the truth instead of just saying "we don't know" where appropriate. I think the unfortunate persistence of the anti-vax movement is partially down to this instinct for authoritarianism and shaming people rather than extending an olive branch.
I do wonder if "vaccines mean we can permanently rid ourselves of masks, distancing, and other authoritarian restrictions" would have been more effective as a campaign than "get the vaccine or you're a horrible selfish piece of crap who probably wants to bump off grandma for her inheritence". Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, but I think it would.
> But some people are still convinced that this won't happen to them if they get Covid, however they fear any number of side effects from the vaccination...
Ayup. Had a close relative like this--he was about 10 years younger than me and still has a teenager. He got Delta and wound up on ECMO. He didn't make it.
All because anti-vax was part of his social identity.
And it's not like he didn't know. I got Covid Original Flavour(tm) and loudly told everybody around me how much it sucked (it was basically the 3rd sickest I've ever been in my life) and all the side effects I got from it.
> It is the coercion / loss of livelihood and other threats, that are getting people up in arms (figuratively, and who knows, someday in real life)
People were up in arms and fearmongering over the vaccine since 2020. This isn’t about coercion - there’s a reason the same people typically don’t get vaccinated themselves. If they believed in the effectiveness of the vaccine they’d be vaxxed themselves (like Republican Governors and Fox News tv hosts).
I personally know someone who thought the vaccine had a good chance of killing me and other acquaintances who took it, all because he read some random posts on the net.
> People have already largely made up their minds, and nothing is going to change them. This is fully a political-religious divide now, and you can't reason people out of a decision they didn't reason themselves into. The ones who pretend they are on the fence and their minds can be changed by some goal being hit or some facts changing, always seem to move the goal posts instead of actually changing their minds.
Despite the anecdote that the first person I know getting vaccinated experienced a life-threatening case of severe anaphylaxis with the first dose, I thought getting the vaccine made some sense. I caught a bug around March/April of 2020 that had very similar symptoms to COVID, kind of like a sore throat with a flu, but I never got tested to see if it was just a bug or Covid that I got. Actually decided I was going to get the J&J vaccine after weighing pros & cons. I know that I am at a very low risk with no comorbidities, but my logic was that despite my low risk, the main benefit would be that it would minimize symptoms if I actually did catch it.
I started talking with the Dr. in the family to decide where/when. This was when the pause on the J&J came out, and I realized continuing my masking, social distancing, and other isolating activities were the best path. That, by delaying, the science would be better known, more vaccines would be used, and information about which vaccines were safest would come out. I felt that some of the politicization issues around what to do seemed to be frankly strange, if not outright authoritarian propaganda on one side, and wacky hodgepodge on the other.
The more I read on it, the more I became concerned because data on spike protein pathogenicity came out [1]. This called into question the big 3 vaccine approaches long term safety in my mind, because if the vaccines cause your body to produce a huge amount of spike protein, well, that on its own is allegedly toxic.
Additionally, I have been hoping for the Novavax vaccine to come out, which appears to be safer and more efficacious, but that appears to be a long waiting game.
I continue to isolate, wear an N95, and socially distance.
> Do you think those who are currently afraid to be vaccinated will change their mind if only we can prevent them...
Given the ppl I've spoken with, this is slightly off target assumption. It's not the jab they fear per se. It's the sources (gov + pharma) and the context (heavyhanded hyperbolic data / stats manipulation), and as of late the authoritarian efforts to force the jabs on anyone (above 5 yo) with a pulse.
If these people have a fear, it's that given the facts too few others have no fear at all.
> As for being anti vax, the vaccine is practically being forced down their throats.
This.
I very much believe in vaccines in general and me and my whole family are vaccinated according to calendar, but getting injection of something that is still at phase 2 trials, created using technology never used before without information on long term effects is something else.
> It’s believed that there are a good number of people who would prefer to take something like the Novavax vaccine over the less-established techniques like mRNA and adenoviruses.
I worry that all of the pro-vaccine propaganda and the attacks and dehumanization of people who chose not to get the vaccine (or people who merely questioned it) has resulted in people who won't listen to this at all and won't change their mind.
The shaming of people who didn't want the vaccine just pushed people further from wanting the vaccine (and in many cases any vaccine) instead of trying to embrace them and make them feel comfortable taking it.
> to not blanket demonize those who are unvaccinated.
Well, I'm currently in quarantine from my 4 month old and wife because an acquaintance refused to get vaccinated. "young people don't die from COVID" type mentality.
I attended my brother's bachelor party - of which we all thought everyone was vaccinated. Turns out this person, not only refused to get vaccinated - but had COVID exposure and still decided to attend. He told us the day after being in close contact for 3 days, that he tested positive and had symptoms during our contact with him.
Of the unvaccinated people I know, this mentality is the large majority of them. They refuse to get vaccinated because they refuse to consider how their actions might actually impact someone else.
>"I think preserving my pride by sticking to my misinformed opinion is more important than preventing harm to all of you."
People who don't get vaccinated generally say it's because they don't trust the government. Probably because the government has proven time again to be untrustworthy. It's not just right wingers like the news is insinuating (another untrustworthy group), but all sides of the political spectrum and all demographics have people who are afraid to get vaccinated. No amount of scolding from you will change their mind, and COVID is probably here to stay, so you should adapt to that truth.
Yes, I still believe it. Sure, they don't prevent infection or transmission. The vaccines cause you to have less symptoms. By being less symptomatic you're less likely to spread the disease.
> It's hard to fathom that you believe that
Yes, I believe getting everyone vaccinated is not political. It's a public safety issue.
Yes, I can understand that politicians can be influenced. Regardless of whether that's the case here I still would have no issue with pushing for everyone to get vaccinated. The billions being made by the corporations producing the vaccine are a pittance in comparison to all the negative consequences of letting it spread uncontrolled.
> The people who refuse vaccines don't do it for a really strong principled reason, AFAICT.
I am very often around circles of people who haven't been vaccinated: family members, friends, friends of family members, friends of friends, etc. There's a good mix between political reasons, and principled reasons. Most fall into the latter group, including myself: I refused to get the vaccine until it was in general availability for at least 6 months. This was the time period I felt comfortable with where I figured if any issues were to arise, we'd have found out about it by then.
Others have longer personal time frames. Others don't want to get it at all. But usually, it is for a strong principled reason. The fact of the matter is, past vaccines have caused issues; vaccines are not without their risks. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? Absolutely! But it's a personal choice. At this point, with all the data we've seen with how harmless and beneficial they are, I believe it to be an unwise one to not get vaxxed, but it's a personal choice nonetheless.
> Even more than that they view the Covid vaccine differently than flu or any other vaccine - largely for political reasons.
But, in fact, the COVID vaccine is very different than any other vaccine. Not only is it brand new technology that to this point was a failure in other trials with other diseases, it was also fast-tracked and released far sooner than any other in history. And it is for a virus that largely most severely affects the elderly, obese, and those with preexisting conditions.
People also forget that the very news organizations and politicians pretentiously shaming people for not getting vaccinated today, are the very same news organizations and politicians that spread fear and doubt about the vaccine just prior to the election. [0] Our current president did the same thing.
Perhaps if they didn't politicize it in the first place, or even plant seeds of fear...they would have more of a leg to stand on when it comes to being so divisive about the matter.
> The unvaccinated are showing an extreme lack of empathy.
I see this sentiment a lot and it indicates to me a fundamental misunderstanding what is driving people to avoid vaccination.
There is a very strong correlation between vaccination rates and trust in the government. Groups with historically low trust in the government (like conservatives, blacks, and hispanics) have the lowest vaccination rates. Conversely, groups with historically high trust in the government (like liberals and asians) have the highest vaccination rates. This suggests most people decided on whether to get vaccinated long before it was available based on their trust in the government which is pushing so hard for it. The resulting spread in misinformation is just the result of mass confirmation bias.
The "lack of empathy" argument depends on the unvaccinated actually believing the vaccine is safe and effective, yet still ineffective enough that their vaccination will help protect others. But they obviously don't believe that.
Suppression of misinformation wont help because - as I'm sure you've seen many times by now - the very act of suppressing information will only reinforce their confirmation bias. It's quite the dilemma.
I personally believe the only solution is for people to hear these people out to patiently, compassionately reason through their concerns. And I believe we should do this knowing full well that many will not be convinced the first time and many will not be convinced ever. Of course, it would help if we collectively agreed to stop harassing them and treated them like concerned humans with misunderstandings instead of malicious fools. Sadly, social media rewards the opposite of this behavior.
> That's funny, the people who are dumb and emotional in my entourage are those who are still completely afraid of COVID even after like, 5 boosters, even if they are in their thirties
I have a few friends like this, though to a lesser degree as their worries have disappeared by now.
> I guess my point is that I don't think antivaxxers don't believe in vaccines because they just want people to die, they don't believe in vaccines because they think it doesn't help people from dying. They actually believe vaccines don't work, it's not just pretend play. It's very very dumb, but I don't think that framing as is just not caring until stuff happens to them is helpful.
I wasn't trying to frame it as "all covid deniers just don't care unless it impacts their family" or something similar. It more subtle than that. And what I said was not supposed to be a generalization at all. It was specifically about my family members.
I do think some portion of all people fall into this group though. Yes, they might truly believe the covid vaccines do more harm than good. But also yes, they would immediately line-up for a covid vaccine if a close family member became hospitalized and visually looked bad. Nothing about the dangers of the vaccine changes in this scenario, and covid didn't suddenly become more dangerous to them. It just became more emotionally visceral. That's not desperation. It's straightforward emotional persuasion, and is the "feeling the pain" as originally commented about.
I do think there is many more social dynamics at play, but I don't feel confident in articulating my scattered thoughts on them well. How people adjust how they act based on social groups, or with very little information people form very strong opinions, how information bubbles impact what topics you see or how they're presented, etc.
> vaccine mandates were still in effect at that point, they'd say that was insane too.
No, that one is particularly weird right now. Vaccines are essentially mandated for many parts of life, and have been for my entire life. At multiple points throughout my development I've had to get required vaccines to do things. I had never even heard of antivaxxers until my late 20s. They used to be laughed at as an insane fringe group on HN.
Nobody in 2011 would have thought it was weird that vaccines would be mandated. I suspect if I predicted on HN that there would be strong resistance to a vaccine in the event of a global pandemic people would have laughed at me as ridiculous.
People don't like vaccines because they don't like the reality we're in and they strangely think resisting wearing masks and resisting vaccines somehow makes it less real. Unfortunately it has made things much worse.
> And while I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to get the vaccine, one thing that will make me much more likely to fall into the "refuse" camp is if they decide to impose some kind of restrictions on basic freedoms and make travel or attending concerts contingent on getting a vaccine.
Ding ding ding, I’m already refusing in solidarity with anyone else who wants to refuse for whatever crackpot reason they like. The system pushing the vaccine is far too corrupt, and the bullying is already far too aggressive, to justify any other position. But it is still a tough decision, because the expected risk of war and fascism is pretty fucking hard to calculate.
By the way in a vacuum I like both MRNA vaccines and nuclear fission, despite the risks.
> I never saw anyone question the efficacy of the vaccine.
Hmm? I remember getting shit on for simply pointing out that the obsession about it is pointless, since it did precious little to stop transmission. They protected the people who got them, and in that sense misinformation was harmful, but I remember restaurants where you couldn't eat inside without 2 vaccinations plus booster, even with a mask. Which was insane and stupid, and people who just went along absolutely did not enjoy that being pointed out.
I got 2 vaccinations, by the time I should have gotten the booster I didn't. Not because I was worried about it, out of sheer spite. I don't do goosestep. I don't eat in restaurants either, I was not personally inconvenienced by any of this -- but I saw it, and made a choice to no longer be part of it.
Heck, I remember asking what possible good those contact tracing apps would do me, since I lived in self-imposed near-quarantine already (I didn't care who was vaccinated and who wasn't, I simply assumed everyone had Covid, including me). I got called a murderer for asking that, nearly literally.
> It's hard to have nuance with people who are participating dishonestly from the outset.
Then don't pretend what I saw with my own eyes doesn't exist and didn't take place.
> No, you just don’t want to get vaccinated. Everything else is window dressing around that.
And I have no rational reason to, except artificial reasons created by most of governments.
> The virus will mutate and continue to do so. Eventually your immunity will weaken - will you get the vaccine then?
My immune system seems doing great job defending me from all the mutations which already took place. So I don't want to interfere, teaching it how to do the job it seems doing so great and targeting it against specific mutations the vaccine is supposed to help with.
I trust my immune system more than I trust whatever the vaccine does. I'm afraid the latter may actually weaken my immunity against the mutations to come. This, together with being pushed to vaccinate, are why I don't want to.
I never ever resisted any vaccine before and was always willing to get vaccinated against everything.
> You have no scientific or educated reasoning here and you’re just letting your ego get in the way of things. It’s ok. I do that too.
I always reasoned the naturally acquired immunity is better than that given by the vaccine and AFAIK this has been scientifically proven already.
> But the quicker you realize you’re caught up in FUD mostly planted by morons and Russian and Chinese state-sponsored democracy dividers
But I've never been interested in what do they say. Only in what humble amount of science I know + my own experience + logical reasoning/speculation. Plus the natural instinct to resist whenever pushed.
I have a friend in this group. There was no logical reason to not get vaccinated, her parents just kept regurgitating all the blatantly false conspiracy theories they were reading on the internet. The amount of times I heard "I'd get it if Bill Gates weren't involved, he's trying to track us" made my head spin.
Now work is requiring it to stay employed, so she's getting it. I'm both sad that's what it took, and happy that it was enough to overcome irrational fear mongering on the world wide web.
reply