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> how many megadeaths you are willing to cause through war and famine

This is a strange way to describe moving towards a more sustainable [cheaper and healthier] diet.



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> sit white-knuckled until I die in a food riot.

This is nonsense, food production on a per-capita basis is increasing and population is leveling off.


> Get ready for a future of expensive food and famines.

Or get ready for a future of increased crop efficiency allowing for more and more cropland to lie fallow for long periods.


> we quickly run out places to grow the types of crops we recommend

Not at all.

https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares

> The problem is overpopulation

A little math might help.

environmental_impact = number_of_individuals * mean_individual_consumption

We can either lower individual_consumption, or wait for the nature to reduce number_of_individuals


>>> We probably need to eliminate most farming

For a start we could just avoid wasting so much :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_waste#Global_extent


> Destabilizing the base of some critical food chain to get 10% better crop yields seems like a bad idea for us to do.

Easy to say when you only spend 10% of your income on food. Try to convince the people who have to spend between 30% and 50%.


> If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

All of this is `fighting the last war'. World population is going to fall precipitously by the end of the century.

The scarcity thinking everyone is parroting is a relic of the 20th century and it gets in our way. It keeps us from thinking about creating abundance.


> We had to engineer our food supply to keep up with what is needed to feed everyone.

Nah, not needed. It's only because people eat so much meat.


>Yes I want at least 30% of the population on Earth to farm their own food.

OH. I see, so you want hundreds of millions of people to starve to death - got it.


> Growing food has turned into an engineering problem where people think you solve it by investing the least possible resources into it.

This is not a bad thing. Food is so abundant that globally, more people are obese than underweight. This is pretty remarkable considering that for all of human history, up until recently, periods of mass starvation was the norm.


>Unsustainable food production is more of a contributor than personal consumption

I wonder when we will finally admit that we need to watch what foods we consume. Casava instead of rice, soy instead of meat, etc.


> By all accounts, that boom will continue for some time until it peaks and the only viable way to feed that many people is to increase yield density.

We could also work to reduce the peak. You know, fight the illness, not the symptoms?


> sustainability, I think that's a bad idea.

Does not look like it. Humanity and Meat production have scaled pretty well in the 20th century. And we have way less food shortages that we have ever had before.


> The article actually says we produce enough to feed the whole world.

The issue is not whether we could feed the whole world, the issue is whether we do. If we don't, then the hypothesis that we could is small comfort to those who are starving.

> Massive death tolls from famines always come down to political stupidity.

Political stupidity is much harder to sustain with small populations, people who can vote with their feet.


> Are you saying that food demand is so unpredictable from year to year that we need to produce and extra 40% as a buffer to avoid famine?

I think GP is saying that food supply is so unpredictable (climate, pests, etc.) that suppliers need to target a large excess of production to avoid famine.


> These kinds of long arc problems for the consumers of the food

You always have to compare with the long arc problems by not making changes... Like the increased nitrogen runoff destroying ecosystems in lakes and oceans, and the reduced yield meaning humans on the margins die of starvation.

How many humans should we kill by starvation to be a little more cautious about deploying this tech?


> Agriculture made humanity a lot more resilient to changes in food supply. Maybe this has negative consequences at the individual level but as a species level it's pretty clear which one is more favorable.

Sounds like it would be a trade-off then, not a clear favorite, depending on what you're optimizing for. Especially when we can afford to focus on maintaining health at an individual level too.


> I think the consequences of food scarcity will be social unrest and political chaos.

I also expect increased overfishing and slash & burn agriculture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-burn#Ecological_impl...


> It is quite likely that we can feed 7bn people.

We could probably feed a lot more, if we crammed everyone into small cages and fed them like factory farmed animals.

The question is why you would want so many people living like that? You are already indirectly pointing out that meat will be off the menu for future generations and I am sure there will many other things that will need to be sacrificed as the population increases (for example, fish populations don't sound like they are keeping up with demand). And at some point there are going to be some hard limits on how many people can be fed.


>> if factories can't produce enough food

We could all probably do well eating a little less factory-produced food and a little more farm-produced food.

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