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Why not? There's no technical reason why the touch or face sensor needs to be trusted. The actual security processing happens in the secure element. The sensor is just an input device.


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Because that's a bad place for the sensor. If I have to pick up my phone and touch the sensor on the back, I might as well use FaceId.

That doesn't prevent a malicious FaceID chip from recording and replaying sensor output, allowing a backdoor to unlock the phone, or a variety of other attacks.

There's a security guide that talks more about what the threat model is and where exactly the encryption and trusted communications happen. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/touch-id-and-face-i...


It is more difficult to defeat a touch sensor than face unlock. With face unlock, I just need a photo of the phone's owner.

With a fingerprint unlock, I need to go to at least a little trouble to fake the fingerprint.


Oh oops, I didn't read carefully enough. Regardless, I think if you're interested in real security, both TouchID and FaceID are terrible (easy to use your body, by force if necessary, to bypass those), and passcode is the only secure option. FaceID and TouchID are just conveniences not affordable to those who have something to lose.

TouchID and FaceID where never about security in the first place. They’re about convenience. Nothing more.

You want security, turn off the convenience features, set a pass phrase and plead the 5th.

FaceID and TouchID is like me writing my house address on my keys and then losing them while thinking “oh well, the house is locked”.


You can be scammed into entering your password into a random textbox and then relayed on the actual website/app. This is too basic. In case of FaceID/TouchID, the acquiring platform (your mobile phone) has secure device binding and FaceID/TouchID is a local authenticator on that device to use that secure device binding to authenticate. If FaceID/TouchID becomes fakeable, we will move on to some other more secure local authenticator. The point is, you have a rich multi-sensor mobile device as your authenticator.

> Also sometimes I need to change them (if they get compromised, if computing progress made them easier to bruteforce, etc.), and I don't really want to have to use cosmetic surgery when that happens.

That's not how it works. Each hardware device that acquires your FaceID or TouchID (or Iris ID etc) do it in a way that's unique to them. Even mission impossible style face mask can't fool these modern FaceIDs. Like all things in security, it is a game of making it really expensive to break it and not really about it being impossible.


Face unlock without a 3D sensor is insecure, period.

Not able to. Touch/faceids are another class of bad security design.

My understanding is that FaceID and TouchID are more of convenience features than security features, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Shouldn't one just disable both of them and use a long passlock code if they are serious about security?


I'm not saying it's realistic, but one could theoretically replace the sensor with a fake one that always returned the same data. That would allow the user to re-setup face ID and let unknowingly let any intruder in.

Not sure how "fooling" comes into play. Only trusted applications can request to use Touch ID/Face ID in the first place. It's not like there's a way for a random application to just say "Scan your face and let me take over your machine"

It doesn't look like it, they still release phones exclusively with face unlock.

What security issues can it have? Fingerprint sensors could be fooled with less work.

And fingerprint sensors don't work always (e.g. for me they don't).


The rumor mill suggests that the face detect is used for authentication, and is there because Apple hasn't been able to get the fingerprint sensor to read through the screen, and they need a quick-unlock feature like TouchID.

I hope it works - I rather like TouchID and would be disappointed to have it replaced by something crappier.


No. The main theory is that the sensors for face detection will be used for ID purposes since they couldn't get TouchID working _through_ the screen.

I'm not pleased with the security aspect of face id though. I get that touch id is not highly secure either, but I'm more confident in it and it does not require looking at a phone to unlock.

I'd take a touch sensor on the back of the phone like is common on android devices over face id any day of the week, by the time the phone is level with your face it's already opened.

The mainboard and FaceID sensor are paired so you can’t ‘trick’ the phone into letting you in with a dummy FaceID sensor.

I agree but keep in mind that this same principal applies to TouchID, which is what FaceID is replacing. FaceID is so much better than TouchID in so many aspects. Less false positives, it works even if your fingers are wet, and it's a natural behavior to look at the screen.

Both TouchID and FaceID is trying to protect from complete stranger. I know that with FaceID (if it does exactly what the video suggests) it will be a harder challenge to unlock.


You're wrong to say that the element of security it provides is low because, even with this workaround, you still don't have access to the data on the device. All this "workaround" does is keep the chain of trust from the original device. You'd still need to be able to unlock the device in order to get anything from it. It doesn't reset the FaceID information or bypass it in any way.
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