> But the rest of the system is not. I want I computer that I can use in the way that I want, with the software that I want, and not a computer that must be used as Apple wants, and limits you in using an hardware that you bought.
You can't run a lot of software on linux, you can run less of it compared to windows and osx. All hardware is limited, all the x86 laptops have soldered CPUs, there is no such thing as unlimited hardware.
>Also from an hardware standpoint Mac are overpriced machines, with insufficient I/O that forces you to bring a bag of adapters with yourself and components that are all soldered on the motherboard, impossible to upgrade.
M1 is not overpriced for its benefits, the x86 stuff I agree with though and fuck their keyboards. No more Jony Ive, so ports are back!
>The reason why I use Linux is that I can do whatever I want on my computer, I don't have to have signed applications, annoying prompts to tell me that the software is not Apple approved (till there are the prompts and Apple doesn't decide to forbid all unsigned software as on iOS), and similar.
The problem I have with this is that its not that you can do whatever, you MUST do it and use a lot of time in configuration. I find the root prompt just as annoying in linux. I just want a working environment, not a bunch of software that asks me to set every preference.
> The only issue I have with Linux is the quality of the hardware. Mac hardware is incredible. I have mac's still running from decades ago and used heavily.
There doesn't seem to a contradiction there. I knew people who preferred Linux on Apple hardware. They were very happy with it.
> If it wasn't for the Mac OS, I wouldn't even bother considering their lineup anymore.
Years ago, when I exclusively used Linux even on my local machines, I used to buy Apple computers and replace the OS with Linux. Because they used to build the best damn computers (specially laptops) out there. They were way ahead of the competition.
It’s sad that now we just have to put up with Apple hardware because of software integration, etc. . If I wanted to run Linux or Windows, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to look somewhere else.
> So yeah, I know there are some good arguments to use Linux vs OS X but ideology is not one I'm really fond of.
Yet this is exactly where ideology matters. If Apple as a corporation decides to make OSX worse than it is, later on, you will have no choice but to follow, if you stay on Mac hardware.
Linux is the only option that gives you freedom to choose your tools, your distribution that fits you best, and change if needed.
> Why would I pay a premium to use an operating system that can't run software my free OS can?
Because you don't need all that software if your goal is to 'code'. If your goal is to run some specific ancient text editor then yeah you may struggle. If you want to code and get something done it's the right platform.
And because the 'normal' things are 10x better - power management, touchpad, display driving, etc.
Do you want to spend your time creating, or time trying to make basic display scaling work on Linux? And why are they better? Because Apple integrates.
> The biggest appeal of Apple is their wonderful hardware.
To you. To others (like me) the biggest appeal was the only even vaguely usable & consistent OS, supported by nice hardware. Now they have replaced the nice hardware with thin-and-light toys with fake keyboards, we're in a bind.
> It seems to me that a Hackintosh is the worst of both worlds. If you spend that much time hacking around the hardware anyways, why not use Linux ?
Quite, I agree. I don't want to futz with either hardware or software, so have gone for a Windows laptop. Windows is profoundly horrible, but it does work for me without having to mess around. We really have reached the point in 2018 where there literally are no good options. Just least-worst for the task at hand.
> why not built a far more powerful and cheaper hackintosh
Because I have better things to do with my time than assemble a poor substitute for a cohesive just-works experience.
> what software is there for mac OS that there is a not an equivalent to for linux or windows
As a developer, most of the exact same software I use every day on OS X runs on Linux just fine. And yet, Linux doesn't provide me with a good user experience, and it doesn't just work[1].
But fundamentally, you are just mad because other people like something you don't. Dwell on that for a while.
[1] If you're going to try and argue with me about how great Ubuntu or Mint or whatever else are these days, let me save you the time: You're wrong, and there is absolutely nothing at all that you can say that will convince me otherwise, because I do use them, but they continue to fail me as primary desktops. Your words conflict with reality, and more words won't change that.
> He is using Linux. The problem is not with the machine.
I get it, I got so frustrated with Linux on laptops* -- one literally set my kitchen table on fire and melted the glass when the fan drivers didn't work -- but, to be fair, this thread IS "A good Linux laptop below 1000 euro".
I don't think there is going to be a perfect Linux on a laptop experience anywhere. The manufacturer-supported Linux variants might be better (dunno, never tried), or a Chromebook, but short of that it's mostly shared components by a few OEMs anyhow.
*Recently bought a Mac, reluctantly, after 30 years of Windows on the desktop and decades of Linux on the server. It's a godsend not having to deal with WSL/Multipass/Docker/Lando etc. just to do some quick dev work AND never having to worry about drivers. The UI is fine, if a bit keyboard-unfriendly compared to Linux and Windows. I don't like Apple as an evil monopolist company, but macOS is admittedly pretty darned nice.
> These issues notwithstanding, the total user experience of owning a Mac laptop is far superior to any Linux or Windows machine I've tried, at least in the past 3 years or so.
That.
I don't love Apple. They're a corporation, so at best our interests temporarily align. Loving them would be absurd. I really really want them to have strong competitors. I'd love to be back on an open source OS full-time, like I was for many years.
Unfortunately, they're so far ahead of the competition, that they screw up, sometimes even in a few ways at the same time, and people come out saying "LOL and Apple fanboys won't switch to Linux even now", and that's true... but it's because I'd be trading a few problems for a few score problems.
I ran Linux on laptops and desktops for about a decade, as my main computers. Ubuntu near the end, Gentoo for about five years, Mandrake really early on, a little time with Fedora somewhere in there, a sprinkling of Debian. I still try it out every year or two! I wish it weren't, but it's still much, much worse, and in the best case slows me down and gets in my way more than a "bad" Apple machine with a "bad" version of an OS X / MacOS, barring actual faulty hardware.
> First of all, Desktop linux barely works on the hardware it is designed to work on.
Huh. I have been running linux on laptops for years and I don't even pick my laptops to run linux spefically. My last laptop was a surface pro and Linux ran with 0 issues and that is pretty esotoric hardware in the laptop space.
> Let's say that because of some miracle, Linux becomes usable on M1 macs...
The release of the first version of Linux on M1 mac is weeks away. With the only major things not working beeing the GPU and bluetooth.
> and people start buying M1 macs to run Linux, Apple will have incentive to lock the bootloader (which they don't currently do) so that people are forced to run macOS only... because their profits does not come from the hardware itself but the "ecosystem" (a.k.a. vendor-lock-in) they have built around it.
I don't follow this logic. Why would Apple first create more work for them to unlock the bootloader and build ways to load other Operating Systems to then take it back? Like do you think Apple likes to pay their engineers to play a prank on the Linux community? Or how do you envision this happened.
> Every company I've worked at for the last 10 years has developed exclusively on macOS.
Counter-anecdote: I have had a Linux computer on my desktop for over the last twenty years, have used Linux primarily for maybe the last eleven, and exclusively for the last eight.
I do not get the near-religious love for Apple products. Pre-OS X, they really were wonderful, best in class without a doubt. I kinda get the attraction back in the early 2000s, when Linux could still be a chore and Macs were a decent choice to get a computer which had a shell and ran real software. But now? They are just not for me. I want to own my own computer, write my own software and control my own destiny.
Linux tooling support is still very important to me. I want to be able to enjoy Konsole and Sublime text.
Windows Subsystem for Linux is getting there, but I don't think it's as advanced as ChromeOS' yet. Besides, I don't like the Metro interface and Windows 10 in general.
Mac means tying to Apple hardware. Apple hardware means crappy keyboard, heavy laptop, and no touch screen.
> It works great because they have a limited spectrum of hardware to support
Probably
> Linux and Windows supports a much broader range of hardware combination, obviously the perfect combination and work doesn't exist for them
Yes
> Try to install OSX on different hardware combinations
Why would I do that when I can buy a Mac?
This is neither a moral stance nor a philosophical one, it's a practical one. I want a stable reliable machine to be productive on, and not to irritate me more than is strictly necessary. That's been a Mac for the last 15 years or so. One dud model in that time is not enough to get me playing with XF86config, tweaking the Registry again, or powering off my laptop when I'm done with it.
> ...any machines which come close to the M1 for software dev?
If you can stand using macOS, that is.
Personally, I'll continue using Linux because that's where all my software gets deployed to and macOS simply can't approach the value of that or the value of open source. On a Mac, you'll be fighting the OS the whole time.
If speed was all that mattered, Mac users would have left Apple a long time ago because this is the first time they're faster than a PC.
> After using both, I honestly don't understand why devs use MacOS over Linux (my favorite: ZorinOS).
Why I use it: I just never had any good hardware for a linux laptop and I hate to tinker with configuration. There's always things that work so-so with linux laptops. Macbook gives good hardware, excellent system integration and I like the defaults out of the box. None of the things you listed have importance for me.
I would probably use a linux distro on a desktop machine though.
Linux is great to revive old macbooks that are no longer supported by Apple though. Linux mint on 10 years macbooks works great.
> They don't actually get any benefit from you and you
Actually they don’t get any penny from me because I can’t run Linux on M1. I like MacBooks. I like OSX.
I’d love to buy one of those M1 and even keep OSX on it but I’m never going to buy a computer whose OS updates could be stopped at any time with no replacement possibility.
You can't run a lot of software on linux, you can run less of it compared to windows and osx. All hardware is limited, all the x86 laptops have soldered CPUs, there is no such thing as unlimited hardware.
>Also from an hardware standpoint Mac are overpriced machines, with insufficient I/O that forces you to bring a bag of adapters with yourself and components that are all soldered on the motherboard, impossible to upgrade.
M1 is not overpriced for its benefits, the x86 stuff I agree with though and fuck their keyboards. No more Jony Ive, so ports are back!
>The reason why I use Linux is that I can do whatever I want on my computer, I don't have to have signed applications, annoying prompts to tell me that the software is not Apple approved (till there are the prompts and Apple doesn't decide to forbid all unsigned software as on iOS), and similar.
The problem I have with this is that its not that you can do whatever, you MUST do it and use a lot of time in configuration. I find the root prompt just as annoying in linux. I just want a working environment, not a bunch of software that asks me to set every preference.
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