I agree with you, though I will caveat that by noting that, as an american, we tend to amplify the faults of our enemies and downplay those of our Allie’s and ourselves. I am by no means a China apologist but the rhetoric between the US and China over the last several years in concerning to me. It feels like people are looking to make everything in this relationship in a good vs evil narrative, no matter which camp you’re in.
What is happening to the Uighurs is easy for me to point out as crossing the line. But something like Hong Kong? As a westerner I was to support democracy and self determination, but by the same token, Hong Kong is indisputably part of china’s sovereign territory and it seems like a lot of people in the US think it’s ok to promote separatism in another country just because it shares our values. Why don’t I ever hear anyone apply that to our allies? ( cough cough Saudi cough)
I find myself sympathetic to the talkie rhetoric not because I believe in communism, but because I grew up in a generation that was lied into the Iraq war, and see similarities with the mind of nationalism that swept the country in the early 2000s. America never really atoned for abu ghraib, gitmo, cia black sites, signature strikes etc. and to me that is way more relevant to anything that we did in the 19th century.
reflexively I am just repulsed by the nationalistic rhetoric on these issues.
It’s appeasement in a new form. We are all acting like corporate Neville Chamberlains. A lot of bad behavior is truly subjective, but the stuff China is doing is not. Any arguments against that suggestion usually fall under the realm of moral relativism, e.g ‘But what about what all the shit America does?’. We’ll discuss America in America’s in own thread, there’s plenty there to rip apart.
Quite frankly, the Chinese people demonstrably have a weak value system when it comes to these issues, exemplified by inaction (what are these people willing protest? Is it a matter of willingness or is it entirely possible they see nothing wrong with the camps or the subjugation of Hong Kong?).
The criticism certainly won’t come from within China, so it must come from outside.
I just have an issue with the CCP and their apologists. That is primarily who people refer to when they say China. It is pretty common speech. Same when talking about America doing something, we refer to the US government primarily, not its people.
Some of us here aren't American and don't see America as the sort of inspirational bastion of freedom that seems to be internally reinforced by your media.
Both America & the PRC can be in the wrong simultaneously, but, that said, the PRC is clearly more in the wrong.
That isn’t so just because you say it is and it seems like you have no idea what it is actually like to live in China. A lot of the people pushing back against anti-China sentiments are actually former Chinese citizens… and if you look at the anti-China lobby that consists of ex-Chinese you end up with the cult Falun Gong and ultra right-wing Epoch Times. That should already tell you a lot about how unrealistic your sentiments are and who is really pushing this narrative that Chinese people are somehow all slaves who do not know any better.
If you get a bunch of people who are completed disconnected from a constituency deciding what’s best for them you end up with the former British colony of America, the former democratic Afghanistan. As its clear you don’t know the actual sentiments of Chinese people it’s a bit ludicrous to suggest that you know what’s good for them better than they do.
Nobody fought the American war of independence on behalf of Americans. It’s arrogant to think that others need us to liberate them from some imagined subjugation.
i’d like to hear more about how Xi is influencing the HN perception of these things. it seems a leap to go from “American HNers disagree with many actions by their own government” to “they disagree with this primarily because of foreign influence”. i think the simpler explanation is that there’s a lot of idealists here who take more of a moral absolutism view of things than is historically practical for a state to do: “this anti-China policy Y is silly because US also does terrible things relating to Y”, not caring (at least publicly) which of the two parties is a worse offender to Y.
Yeah I don’t disagree. I was more commenting on the general trend towards China bashing that I’ve seen online more recently. If we don’t bother to make the distinction in our writing we eventually won’t bother to make the distinction in our thinking, which would be playing into the hands of the CCP, who desperately want an enemy in the West.
You'll note that I haven't defended anything except sovereignty over HK.
If you only apply extreme rhetoric and exaggeration towards one country, that's bias. At a certain point, all you're saying is that you really really don't like China. Whatever. They'll continue as they are and we'll continue being a house divided against itself that doesn't build anything.
Hopefully we don't start any "just" wars over it. America has a bad habit of doing that.
I think it's precisely an attitude like this which is the problem. The US/UK and China are incomparable. For example, you can say what you just said without consequence. Try that in China. There is no rule of law there, prosecutors get a 99% conviction rate and political opponents are disappeared. The communist government system has killed over 100M and China actively organ harvests political prisoners.
the US and UK may have done terrible wrongs but they are held endlessly to account. I don't want to get into a dreadful endless debate about foreign adventures (I am not a fan of the Afghan or Iraqi wars by the way) but there is just a world of difference between a totalitarian state and a democratic one.
Imagine the police turning up and arresting you for that comment and you disappear never to be heard from again. That is the reality for many Chinese dissidents. Don't undervalue the freedoms gifted to you by the imperfect state in which you live.
I am so tired of China being used to stoke American jingoism, of politicians making a contest of who is really 'tough on China' and, most horrifyingly, of seeing other USians online practically salivate as they fantasize about a war with China.
It's some cold war boogieman horseshit. And it's depressing to watch here on Hacker News, too, any comments that question the beating of those war drums go dead.
Yesterday I heard someone bemoan the supposed lack of patriotism today, and wish we could be 'united' like we were after 9/11. You know, that time we rushed headlong into two useless forever wars that ended hundreds of thousands of human lives and brutally disrupted millions more. The time we saw Sikhs assaulted in the streets for daring to sort of look like Muslims in the eyes of uncultured hicks. And when the entire media apparatus, 'left' and 'right' rallied to pump out war propaganda for years and years.
Disgusting and depressing. And it's where I fear we're headed every time I see China in US headlines anymore.
Arguably the biggest problem that Western democracy faces is apathy. So I think many of us take the opportunity to ride the wave of ire that China's policies illicit and attempt to funnel it into self-reflection. The West is an unaccounted bully on the global stage, the list of atrocities it has committed is both difficult to comprehend and stomach.
This does not at all placate China. Unchecked power in any context is bad news. Both the Chinese and Western populace are complicit. We are all heading for a tragically sobering wake up call.
If the only way for the Western psyche to understand its own pathology is by projection onto others, then so be it.
I think if you look at media and propaganda within China, my original point is true - America (and often Europe) is presented as an enemy, an example of the failure of democracy, a chaotic place, a dangerous place to live/visit, a country that intrinsically hates China.... there’s no way in which Chinese people are told ‘American democracy is good, our system is also good, let’s just learn to get along’
edit: in addition, things that we’ve seen in recent years like ‘purges’ of Western influences in Chinese universities - those directly contradict your point that China doesn’t consider the West an ideological enemy.
Sure, the treating of Uighur people is very questionable. We don't have a lot of water tight evidence though, so while it doesn't look great it's also not clear cut.
What I find amusing though is how everyone focuses on that one story because that is the best they can find to criticise the CCP for whilst at the same time the US commits 10000x worse crimes as I have listed above.
Honestly, if China was as aggressive as the USA then they could easily pick a million human rights violations to ramp up anti USA propaganga in China and justify an invasion, but guess what, China is not as aggressive and war focused as the USA.
Last time I checked it's the USA which deploys missles, war ships, tanks and troops all over the world in allied countries, not China. China's military is just sitting in China. Not sure who people (who are not American) should be more afraid of... think about...
This. Most foreigners (of China) have a one-sided view of Chinese government, and they lack any imagination in empathizing with Chinese citizens. You can easily disenfranchise the voices of billions of actual Chinese constituents by saying everything is probably an astro turfing campaign. It’s not like American or foreign interests actually care about the well being of Chinese citizens. We (America and allies) didn’t take a vote of Iraqi citizens when deciding to liberate them, and not only that I can probably guarantee you 0 fucks were given for their livelihoods when making that decision. US politicians and policies are actually obligated to serve American constituents (as doing otherwise risks losing re-election), so whenever foreign policy claims to be anti—foreign-government for the benefit of foreign constituents—that is all political bullshit.
But look at the facts. The communist party has driven China to become a massive success economically and this is an objective fact no one is arguing against. Do you really think the Chinese people are aligned with Western first world concerns when their pockets are lined so thickly by the CCP over the last forty years? And if they are indeed aligned with their government, then being anti government is the same as being anti-Chinese constituency. Describing it in any other way is just manufactured-justification.
I’m not validating all the actions of the Chinese government. In fact they are actually severely bureaucratic, undeveloped, of course committing many moral sins. But if I take a stance against China I’m not deluding myself into believing I’m somehow the savior of Chinese people from their own government. They know which side they are on and what they are supporting.
For all the faults of western democracies, the Chinese Communist Party is far worse. That’s not anti-China propaganda.
You comment on this issue a surprising amount, and clearly feel strongly about the US’ views on China. I’d be curious as to exactly how you feel China is being judged unfairly.
I’m not so quick to write off China’s treatment of Uiygurs as terrible for human rights. My understanding is that Tibetans went through similar issues decades before, so my sense is that it’s likely happening, whether or not the source is CIA.
I just think the USA has done far more to encourage this stupid “love your country or we will treat you as a terrorist” attitude that China seems to have adopted. Also the consequences of my country invading Iraq without a real mission or realistic plan destabilizing the region have caused (far?) more than 200k civilian deaths.
I feel like an American complaining about China (which he has zero influence over) and ignoring the problems in America that he can influence is large hypocrisy and it should be poured out, repeatedly.
I would disagree with your 'crux' of the argument, as the majority of the article is discussing human rights violations, capitulation of some of America's largest institutions to CCP demands, and recent protests in Hong Kong.
I would also disagree with calling a fairly well cited call to action as 'half baked repetitions of what we hear every day'.
Could you go deeper into how we, the Americans, 'goaded China on' to commit human rights atrocities.
From your post, it seems your issue lies mainly with distrust of the CCP. I agree, that's fine.
> However the two situations are vastly different. The US has a history of reporting on issues that happen on their own turf. Sometimes with positive outcomes, sometimes without any outcome at all.
I'm not sure what you're trying to justify on the US? My interpretation is that it seems more truthful to you at least because you have some aligned values?
This where past details really have to come in imo. Consider the times. China is a rising challenger to the current hegemony and historically they will fight on some level. And fighting is dirty. Most people align with the side that has the most shared common values, and make judgements accordingly. They have no time and energy to dive into the details. Knowing that, these entities will try to manipulate you. If you don't want to be manipulated, you just have to spend a little effort on reading up on different narratives and figure out what's relevant.
Arguably, US (and to a lesser extent Israel) have committed or supported far more international human rights abuses, war crimes and terrorism than any other modern country. So yes, we are not sympathetic to mindless anti-China propaganda even though we may not fully support "communist regimes" too.
The article we are commenting on literally describes indiscriminate killing of people by the US military. If all you have to do to justify killing a people or imprisoning them in Guantanamo is to label them as terrorists then China is way ahead of you. They are just preempting their own terrorists. So is Russia. They are just fighting Nazis in Ukraine.
It’s pointless to argue who is more corrupt/evil. It doesn’t matter if one side is even a lot more rotten than the other. Any rotting system will continue to rot until they resemble each other.
My whole point revolves around the ignorance of Americans to their own atrocities, because, believe it or not, that Chinese citizen has the same line of thinking on their own country’s atrocities.
You might argue that Chinese citizens are also subject to propaganda on the atrocities. But actually many are well aware of that. The difference in America is that we think we don’t have propaganda. Propaganda is really just a prevailing spin in information. Just because there is free speech doesn’t mean some prevailing biased take cannot exist.
What is happening to the Uighurs is easy for me to point out as crossing the line. But something like Hong Kong? As a westerner I was to support democracy and self determination, but by the same token, Hong Kong is indisputably part of china’s sovereign territory and it seems like a lot of people in the US think it’s ok to promote separatism in another country just because it shares our values. Why don’t I ever hear anyone apply that to our allies? ( cough cough Saudi cough)
I find myself sympathetic to the talkie rhetoric not because I believe in communism, but because I grew up in a generation that was lied into the Iraq war, and see similarities with the mind of nationalism that swept the country in the early 2000s. America never really atoned for abu ghraib, gitmo, cia black sites, signature strikes etc. and to me that is way more relevant to anything that we did in the 19th century.
reflexively I am just repulsed by the nationalistic rhetoric on these issues.
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