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I’m not a lawyer, but the Wikipedia part I quoted gives me the impression that, in US law or maybe the specific state this case was in, “fraud” is legally defined “depriving somebody of any money or property”.

Again assuming Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence#Procedure_in_the_Un...) has this right, negligence requires injury (“The United States generally recognizes four elements to a negligence action: duty, breach, proximate causation and injury. A plaintiff who makes a negligence claim must prove all four elements of negligence in order to win his or her case”

“Injury” may have a wider meaning in US law than elsewhere, though. Wikipedia gives me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_injury, which says “Personal injury is a legal term for an injury to the body, mind or emotions, as opposed to an injury to property”, so properties can be injured, too, and https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1646 sort-of shows that’s a synonym for “property damage”.



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Fair enough. I guess this is why I should get a lawyer involved! I was assuming there was some distinction between accidental negligence and fraud as far as what could be protected against.

Well, get back to me when negligence is punished like fraud, since the impact on the victim can be just as drastic regardless of tortfeasor's intent or lack of same.

Gross negligence or fraud cannot be disclaimed?

Strictly speaking, negligence has its own 4-part test (duty, breach, causation, damages). Fraud (intentional misrepresentation made to be relied on by another to their detriment) without intent (or reliance) is simply an unactionable misrepresentation.

Really the question in my mind is whether it’s: negligence, gross negligence, or fraud…

Why isn't this considered criminal negligence?

Oh, negligence can certainly be criminal.

Sam didn't claim that though, he specifically claimed that unintentionally stating incorrect jargon is a felony crime called 'fraud'.

That is incorrect and somewhat ironic in a post about using correct terminology.


At the very best it's gross negligence on a scale never before seen.

When does gross negligence become fraud? Does it require intent? Do they need to show intent? Basically show he knew what he was doing even though he plays dumb?


Negligence that leads to bodily harm, ya; but negligence that leads to monetary losses is probably a civil rather than criminal matter. It depends on the jurisdiction for sure, some developing world countries might see it as criminal.

But even without intent, negligence can, at times, rise to the level of being criminal[1].

Not sure if there's even been a case of a white-collar/financial negligence charge being considered a felony or not though...

Either way, I think sama's point was that this stuff can be A Big Deal and is really important. I don't think any of this discussion contradicts that.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence


> someone must be at fault

Some times, yes, other times, no. Yet, it's not fraud, when someone is at fault, it's for other issues.


To clarify... in the US, the property owner can be held liable for injury that results _from the property owner's negligence, etc._ even if the injured person was trespassing or committing a crime.

This is called criminal negligence

Yes, negligence would be that something else.

Theranos had a duty of care to the patients and they very blatantly breached that duty.

Both fraud and negligence are torts, but they are completely different in how they are applied. Fraud deals with purely financial loss, while negligence deals with harm which is much wider in scope.


There is such a thing as criminal negligence.

This should be negligence. Perhaps not criminal negligence, but should be sue-able c

Does the US have laws against this type of negligence?

Which exact federal crime do you mean by ‘negligence’ exactly?

The various fraud statutes require intent.


There is also such a thing as criminal negligence, right?
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