I feel like I should support Ukraine. I don't like the idea of foreign invaders. But if I'm honest I know very little about this conflict.
I know historically the Soviet union was probably worse to it's own citizens than the Nazis were to theirs. So I'm pretty sure Russia is the bad guy.
But how do you all know they are?
Where do I learn more that isn't some pre-digested media message?
Lately I've been let down by media narratives finding out they're often over hyped versions of the truth the leave out any nuance so I don't trust what I'm hearing on the news.
I'm going to take your argument as a sincere argument and not an ad hominem attack that is sounds like. I can tell from your comment that you have a specific perspective on this. I can assure you that I do not. But, if you asked someone high up in the Russian military do you think they would tell you that they invaded Ukraine? I am going to suggest they might say that they read the writing on the wall and sent early armaments to protect themselves. I understand that you would think this is a lie. But, I am just saying from their perspective they would say they have done nothing wrong and are protecting themselves. Ukraine, would say they were minding their own business and Russia attacked them after multiple threats for no reason. That is not to say I think Russia is telling the truth. Just that from their perspective they are not doing anything wrong. And as a side note, even if you are passionate about a subject it is a more powerful argument to attack the idea, not the person. That is childish ... although I will admit it used daily for political arguments in the US.
how much of this was contributed to banning all reporting from the Russian side of things? right now the atmosphere is like if you even remotely suggest that Russia is actually making slow progress despite losses you are viewed as supporting Russia!
Yet what the fixation on Kyiv is doing is it's pulling resources away from the south and Donentsk/Lukansk area where the Ukraine army is in real danger of being completely surrounded.
There is heavy propaganda and disinformation from both Russia and Ukraine but what we've done in the West is effectively ban impartiality. Never before have we seen this level of zealous emotions since WW2.
@JominiW on twitter does a very good explanation of various political and military objectives and the strategic movement of the Russian forces and he's repeatedly called out the dangers of believing the enemy is a paper tiger.
We've seen all sorts of incompetence from the Russian side and Ukrainian forces have done a good job of defending Kyiv but we forget that Ukraine is not just Kyiv, it is slowly being swallowed up from all directions.
This is called target fixation and it's going to shock a lot of people who only follows one side. Best thing to do in an unpredictable and volatile situation is to not fixate on one view.
We will shortly know in the coming weeks what will happen, if Putin makes significant grounds, he has more chips to gamble/make demands. If Putin fails here, he has no choice to escalate in ways that was previously thought unimaginable.
It doesn't help that US/NATO alliance is adamant on not escalating to WW3 yet they sanction every Russian, despite their objections to war and Putin, in some extremely liberal naivete that the Russians will rise up against an authoritarian government who is ready to use small scale nukes if need be.
Your only concept for what the Russians were thinking when they invaded Ukraine is what western media and politicians have fed you. You don't actually know anything about what they were thinking. lol.
Russia is doing the entire planet a favor by removing the CABAL from Ukraine. Yes, those who do not do much research believe Russia is attacking Ukraine for a very different reason. When the smoke clears Russia will be seen as a HERO. Many do not want to believe this. They are somewhat brainwashed by a lying media that is owned and controlled by the same CABAL. I have been researching this CABAL for more than 40 years. Most of the people of this planet have only recently began to 'see' that something is wrong with, not some, but almost all of those who sit at the top level of corporations. Like the CDC, Facebook, Twitter etc. There is a group taking a stand against the CABAL. Russia is part of that group. That does not mean that Russia is not guilty of crimes against its people and/or against humanity. It means that they are on the good side of this conflict.
Last time I spoke with a person from Ukraine. He was saying that they are at war with Russia. In situation where on frontline they cannot shoot back because Russia would paint them as offenders in media. Propaganda machine is so strong that Ukrainian people living in Russia would believe that Ukraine is now a fascist country and would gladly support even more intervention. In the meantime the country is economically struggling, people are leaving the west for work.
If all sources of information are feeding you with propaganda, public institutions are deeply corrupt and your wages/retirement is propped by petro dollar you get people supporting Putin.
What the West should be doing is to support Ukraine defending their territory. Instead, they freeze conflict for 5+ years without resolution.
I was trying to refute the claims of the GP. Please don't insinuate I'm on Russia's side because I'm trying to understand both sides of this horrific situation. It's possible to be pro-Ukraine but also see why Putin invaded.*
We need nuance rather than black-or-white positions.
I am speechless at this revisionist view of recent history.
Two things:
1. If anyone is confused about the Crimea invasion simply go back and read the primary sources. Read newspapers from overseas, especially those in different languages. No one believed that the recent invasion of Crimea began as a civil war/proxy war. It had become that, sure, but let's keep the facts straight.
2. To the poster: how can you be so sure of global events? Your viewpoint is the accepted perspective of the Russian government. Does that not give you pause, to repeat the words of a clearly self-interested party?
Seeing these sort of posts that implicitly suggest that Russians somehow are unaware of the war in Ukraine is ridiculous.
Everyone in Russia knows. People in Russia have been in a state of panic since the day the invasion began. They know what's going on. The government isn't really hiding it.
If anything, Westerners have been more propagandized about the conflict than Russians. Sure, there is a significant segment of Russia that has fully bought into Putin's propaganda -- But nearly every westerner has bought into the West's propaganda.
If you can't place Ukraine on a map, you do not have an informed opinion. If you haven't heard "Donbass" earlier than a week ago, you are not informed. If you weren't aware of the 2014 coup in Ukraine, you are not informed.
Please stop pretending to be enlightened. If someone wholeheartedly believes Putin, your little banner won't change their mind.
Side-note: the Russian text is awful. It roughly translates to:
> The continuous war against your Ukrainian brothers has carried away many victims.
> The truth is being obscured from you your government (yes, the grammar is wrong)
Thank you for that large helping of word salad. My advice to you is to learn to think and write clearly, call out BS when you hear it, and not interpret that as "ad hominem attack".
I don't know what you mean "by specific perspective" that I have whereas you pretend objectivity. But, being neutral in situations of injustice is not "objectivity", it is choosing the side of the oppressor.
As to the idea Russia would say "they have done nothing wrong and are protecting themselves" well, they would say that, wouldn't they? You do not have to take it at face value after the facts on the ground clash with it.
The idea that Russia had to do it (send troops across the border) to protect themselves is nonsense, not even logically consistent with what you said before: "It didn't happen, and you made me do it." It's the logic of a narcistic abuser. A full-scale invasion clearly happened and is ongoing.
You repeat "from their perspective they are not doing anything wrong" without addressing that this is not a factual perspective, it is a disinformation.
I never said and Ukraine will not say ,that Russia attacked "for no reason", just that the reasons are selfish, greedy, cruel, undemocratic and intolerant; and not as you present them.
While nothing is for sure, I'll grant the claims by Ukraine a lot more credence than those by Russia. Russia has a terrible track record when it comes to the truth.
It's worth replying specifically to highlight how wrong the original comment is, but the evidence that was cited by the Russian government to justify their invasion was clearly fabricated.
For instance, an alleged car bombing in Donetsk right before the invasion was staged using cadavers,[1] and a video used to claim that Ukrainian troops were moving aggressively into separatist territory was filmed far from its purported location.[2]
If Russia was so sure that Ukraine was committing these atrocities, they wouldn't need to rely on fake videos to justify attacking.
As far as I'm aware, all sides think this is happening for the same reason, they only disagree about whose fault it is.
You raised the possibility that Putin invaded accidentally because someone told him Ukraine wanted to be invaded and he believed them, I don't think that adds up and if anyone is actually saying that it's more likely Russian propaganda than a serious attempt to understand Putin's motives.
I'd heard the Russian conscripts sent in to kill and be killed in Ukraine had been told that was what was going to happen, but not sure how far up the chain the lie is supposed to have started, and how many actually believed it.
And then all of your subsequent comments seem to be extremely consistent with Russian government talking points.
You were initially kind of concerned that the invasion was not justified, but now you believe the Russian government positions whole-heartedly?
It is a very interesting transition of opinion in a short amount of time! What's up?
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