The modern conception of true love is very modern. Nobles used to marry to accumulate property and fairy tales were little more than the glammed up version the hoi polloi consumed. Like the Kardashian thing, tabloids etc where the story is a fabrication.
I think what gets lost is that long term relationships have been more utilitarian than anyone likes to admit. Who doesn't love a love story, or want to feel the rush of first attraction?
The problem is that it isn't enough to build a life out of. You need a practical, working partnership to raise a family and app dating isn't geared to that goal. The apps give a monstrous illusion there might be something better on the next swipe, and it just isn't true.
Modern dating apps are terrible because they have taken all the mechanics used in the gambling industry and use that to fleece users. I hope this generation makes a conscious decision to go backwards in the search for love. Love isn't convenient and its not supposed to be.
Well we've certainly come a long way from fiddler on the roof, haven't we? Or the best romantic prospect being either your cousin, or the farmer girl that lives a mile away? I think that theory holds.
>But only long enough to bootstrap into having spent enough time around each other to get attached
Yea, in my experience that's how a huge swath of relationships usually work, especially for people who haven't been in many relationships or who have big enough relationship gaps that they feel the need to cling. People getting caught in relationships that aren't all that great but "hey, wtf else are we gonna do, at least we aren't tearing each other's throats out, right? Maybe having a baby will help us love each other." We've all seen it, many of us have lived it.
I'm arguing that the proliferation of dating apps is helping that go away. Either because a highly specialized interests based site like OkCupid lets you zero in on quite nearly the perfect partner, or because you can shotgun across a zero cost app like tinder, you're far more likely to find an actual meaningful relationship.
For the record, I know there's a higher tier of relationship than "familiarity breeds love" due to personal experience.
Modern dating apps are pretty much all terrible, they basically completely commodify the experience of love and turn relationships into a purely aesthetics based thing. It's pretty terrible because I think most people don't actively have any way to meet single people their age, so people pretend apps are somehow a band aid for a deeply atomized society. Unless you're in a foreign country or a tourist, the advice I've heard repeated over and over is trying to meet others through organic social connections (ultimate frisbee, D&D, work, class) so that there exist some social fabric to base a relationship upon.
Humans are the same as we were for millennia, the problem is that we seem to be having a bit of a self-denial crisis nowadays. We just can’t accept our flaws anymore, apparently, so we build these fake meaningless narratives that “everyone is special” and “all bodies are beautiful” etc. The truth is that dating is brutal; it works very well for a few people, but for the majority of average people it is a hard competition to which nobody actually know the rules. It’s completely asymmetric gender-wise and failing on it is basically failing on being.
So you find yourself in this situation where everyone is so nice and polite, so sophisticated and accepting, so inclusive, but for some reason nobody gives a single ** about having a romantic relationship with you. How’s that possible? Well it’s possible because it’s all fake. Deep inside, in our intimacy and our inner circles, we’re the same as we were a thousand years ago. The apps simply make it obvious and pull it to the surface.
Dating apps seemed like they got about a decade that anyone took them seriously at all. Maybe 15 years if I'm being generous.
Before that, we went out and met people in meat space. Often at bars, because as bad as that was, it still beat the dating apps of the day.
I think at this point people are getting paralyzed by an overabundance of choice in many cases, and the illusion of the possibility of infinite pickiness (coupled with the ability to pick out flaws before you ever encounter redeeming qualities in a person).
When you look at human history, for most of it, marriages were arranged. Then for the last few centuries, they were arrived at by "love" (aka, raging hormonal passions, and the occasional chemically altered decision making). Now, people are making this match making thing about finding the perfect person. May as well make it about finding a martian for how successful that's likely to be, by anyone who bothers to take a second to look at it.
Humans are messy. Two humans are messier than one. Relationships aren't about perfectly compatible people, they're about learning to work together despite the fact that you're going to have reason to clash on a regular, if not constant basis. And if that prospect is too exhausting, then yea, people should expect to be alone more. If THAT prospect is unacceptable, perhaps consider rebalancing your life to make room for basic human intimacy. There's no such thing as mustering 150% of your available resources.
Problems with modern dating have worsened from various perspectives::
- Social media platforms, such as Instagram and TikTok, have significantly influenced dating expectations. They have set high standards that women often use to choose their partners. A few years ago, Instagram was the primary influencer, but now it’s TikTok. This influence ranges from physical appearance, where men on TikTok even went to the extent of breaking their jaws to achieve a certain look, demonstrating the power of peer pressure, to lifestyle expectations, for instance, college girls often expect their potential partners to regularly take them out for dinner and parties. Working women might expect men to earn a substantial income, around 300k or 500k a year, and also provide travel, gifts, etc. (all of these have videos of women demanding them you can look then up), There’s also an expectation for men to conform to a woman’s lifestyle and mentality. If he doesn't, she can easily find another partner on a whim. Therefore, as a man, you are expected to have a good job, earn a substantial income, own a car, a house, maintain good looks and fitness, be outgoing, mentally healthy, and cover expenses such as dinners and shopping. On the other hand, a woman is often just expected to be slightly above average looking.
- Dating apps have significantly altered the landscape of dating, often hindering the potential for forming long-term relationships or settling down. These apps are designed with algorithms that encourage continuous usage and even persuade users to purchase premium services. For women, it often becomes akin to window shopping, creating an illusion of choice, the more options there are, the harder it becomes to make a choice. Many users (mostly women) tend to judge someone’s entire personality based on poorly taken photos or inadequately written descriptions. A recent study found that many users are not actually on these platforms for dating (1). Women often seek male validation and attention, or even meet in real life for temporary gains like free dinners or smoking weed. Men, on the other hand, use these platforms as a means to show off their ‘matches’ like a trophies. The dating scene has become fundamentally corrupted at this point. Even if two individuals connect, they often find it easier to break up and look for other options since there are ‘plenty of fish in the sea’. They become addicted to the cycle of finding and trying new matches rather than focusing on settling down. The only entity that benefits from this situation is the business model of the dating app. It’s important to note that many of these dating apps are owned by a single company or a few companies.
- Women having the dominant choice in this "game": In many cultures where pre-arranged marriages are still prevalent, the dating scene tends to be less stressful and more robust, often leading to long-term relationships or marriages. For instance, Japan has returned to this practice due to the complexities of modern dating (2). In these pre-arranged setups, parents filter potential partners before introducing them to their offspring. This is a significant step because if you give the choice directly to a young person (or even an older one with a lack of experience), they are likely to make poor decisions. Their choices will be heavily influenced by certain ‘checklists’ that align with fantasies in their minds, such as looks that resemble a celebrity, an accent, someone look like a person from a TV show they like, or other superficial attributes that often result in so-called hypergamy.
Dating apps amplify this issue as judgments are mostly based on short descriptions or a few pictures. These apps are designed more for sexual interactions rather than finding the most compatible partners - a strategy to keep them in business. Consequently, women have evolved to fit into the social status quo. Women, being more vulnerable to threats such as murder and rape, have learned to adapt quickly to social norms for survival in a natural setting. However, this becomes problematic when society adopts self-destructive norms. Women often reinforce these self-destructive norms for the safety of their own genetics, leading to a cycle where self-destructive norms breed more of the same.
Dating apps have become the most common way to meet other people, especially given the anti-social tendencies of millennials and Gen Z. It has also become the norm and status quo, including behaviors like swiping right/left. As a result, women’s evolutionary instincts drive them to reinforce the status quo no matter what. In a hypothetical scenario where some tyrants change the current status quo for dating overnight, you will find that women will support it.
- In dating, women often control sexual interactions while men control relationships. These apps are primarily about sexual interactions, making the dating pool unbalanced and women are the dominant side. This dominance exists even without the algorithm that further manipulates the scene, where women usually have unlimited swipes and even cheaper premium plans compared to men. A clear example of women controlling sex is that any woman can download any of these apps at any given time and find someone to hook up with within 30 minutes. There are even screenshots of profiles where women mention they are in a certain city ‘only for the weekend’, showing how easy it is to arrange a quick hookup for a woman. Men, on the other hand, if they wanted to have sex right now for whatever reason, it won’t happen - unless they live in a country where prostitution is legalized. Otherwise, they end up sexually frustrated and exploited by these apps even more. This leads to the ‘player’ culture, where men manipulate women’s emotions to access what they can’t control - sex, and later leave them because they do control the relationship. The woman is then left with an emotional scar while looking for the next match, filled with judgment and trust issues, making the matching process even worse for the next ones, that's why dating scene wasn't that bad say in 2015, it is far worse now, the effects are exponential that a lot of youg men are now actually single, while women are not (3).
The solution: it's simple, going back to basics. Parents should take responsibility for finding a suitable potential partner for their son or daughter. It’s highly unlikely that a father would reject a potential guy because he’s not 6’ tall or doesn’t have a ‘porn stash’. They would likely look into deeper attributes
Meeting people in the real world like we have done for millennia is highly underrated. I don't understand the obsession with dating apps. It's a horrible way to meet people. Young people's inability to approach potential partners the old school way has been a boon for those who actually have the balls to do so. I face so little competition these days, it's become real easy to stand out from the pack and get everything I want, more often than not.
A lot of comments here missing the point of the article. People are quick to blame apps for dating pain. Reading the article, very few of the author's points are caused by the app-ification of dating. It is easy to blame "the corporations" for social issues. Let's get specific about what is happening.
The article does offer good insight, which I'll highlight here:
1. The root of many dating issues is a lack of communication:
> When I was in my late teens or early 20s I would sometimes be in the early stages of dating someone and feel like there was a glass wall between us, I just didn’t really get them, I didn’t know what they wanted from me, and it was so hard for me to have any clarity about who they really are.
2. Most people in their decision-making around relationships are reacting to social pressure rather than following their self-awareness. As an example:
> Most people turn to frameworks: either I’m religious, so I’ll wait until marriage, or I don’t think sex is sacred, so I guess I’m open to casual sex
3. In modern dating people tend to have more options, and this magnifies the need for (1) open communication and (2) honest introspection.
Interesting that at no point does anyone stop and think, “Gee, maybe tearing down every institution and social obligation in the name of individualist consumerism wasn’t a good idea? Perhaps our ancestors and their thousands of years old traditions concerning marriage and dating weren’t outdated idiots after all?”
Nope. The solution is always more dating apps, more self-help books, more targeted algorithms to find your perfect match and fulfill your individualist desires for pleasure and purpose. If you aren’t happy with your dating situation, it’s because you aren’t knowledgeable or hard-working enough.
What's wrong with meeting people IRL? Does that just not happen anymore? It used to be that friends would hook their friends up. Or you'd meet someone at school or through work. Is that no longer the case?
The impression I've gotten about modern dating (other than the terribly misguided sexual libertinism) is how lonely it all sounds. Plus, the whole shitting on marriage (and the families those marriages produce) that permeates the background assumptions of people like on this pod is like a superhighway to future unhappy bitterness for women (and men) who while away their reproductive years.
Apps like Tinder are obviously dystopian but even the "deeper" dating apps are kind of fucked up and vampiric. They assume the centrality of the self and prioritize self-fulfillment through finding optimally compatible mates. Good lord. There have been many happy marriages, but very few compatible ones. algorithmically optimizing for compatibility rather than complementarity and, frankly, productive discord (tending to future growth and harmony) is existentially suicidal for the individual and the species.
That's not to even go into the problems they create by aggressively imbalancing the distribution of sexual partners by tilting the playing field towards the high status male "players" and disenfranchising average males, thereby widening the sexual inequality gap. These are societally evil platforms.
And where are all the happy lifelong commitments? The good outcomes? Divorce rates for couples who met through dating apps are supposedly 5x those who met through friends. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their algorithms.
Marriage is so much more of a contribution to the social fabric than is pursuing personal sexual experience. No wonder these threads trace back to the Free Love movement. Slouching towards Bethlehem indeed.
1. Apps or no, dating is still about interfacing with another person. It's hardly true that the dating app is "servicing our desires." It's not. It's just a window into another person.
2. "The more unhappy you are the more you will spend in your date-death spiral." Is this even a thing? I would imagine a very unhappy person would not date a lot. Or they would be settled into an unhappy relationship. Is it really true that dating has historically resulted in more happy relationships? I'd love to see evidence to this point because I know a lot of people whose parents were in unhappy relationships. That model, from my perspective, didn't have the best results.
The tech is superficially premised on the idea that humans will behave the same in captivity. Necessity and familiarity are critical variables in the right environment for pair bonding that can't be replicated through technology that exists to undermine those two things. Technology solves the necessity of people to depend on one another or invest their time in interpersonal experiences; it's easier than ever to shut the world out and not worry about survival. It also allows people to be distant while creating the illusion of connectedness, and people are going to be much less likely to invest in new relationships in that case. Take those things away and all you have is the primitive instinct to act on, which is what today's dating apps are specifically tuned to. If you want more than that, it's almost too bad, because opportunities for the sexes to engage in meaningful shared experiences are few and far between today. You're lucky if you see the same person more than once at a coffee shop. Go to a night club today, and chances are it will be predominantly full of people who for some reason aren't actually interested in having fun or giving anyone a chance outside of their clique. Workplaces are not only far more remote-oriented today but are less hospitable to relationships among coworkers than ever. Meetups are basically a joke now, and let's not even get into the bar.
Younger generations are correct in getting out of the dating app game, even if perhaps it will take a while for people to actually return to meatspace for dating, by and large.
It's said that it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, but Alfred Lord Tennyson never used a dating app.
While I agree with some points in the article (mainly the last sentence "...Stop swiping and start sculpting") I do have to disagree strongly with:
>>" Many people are unable to get married and have kids because they can’t commit. "
I do not buy into the idea that lack of commitment is the cause of lower marriage rates. Marriage today is not the same it was 50 years ago, or even 15 years ago. I believe that many people ("millennials") are turned off by the idea of marriage altogether.
With divorce rates in the 40-50% range (in the US), higher debts accrued early in life, lower house ownership rates, and higher first-time-parenting ages, it makes sense that people aren't clamoring to get married at the ripe age of 21.
I understand the articles point about quality time invested + building a relationship vs. expecting instant gratification - but I think that's a problem that exists far outside the scope of Tinder or any other dating app.
I do agree with
>> "This is particularly true when they are looking for someone to marry. They focus almost entirely on who they can get."
But not for the reasoning - I think it's an over-inflated idea of "true love", "the one", "soul mates", or any other Disney-ification of the idea of love. Marriage is a contractual agreement to build a family/joined life. Any other way of looking at it can be attributed to Rom-coms and greeting cards just as easily as technology. It's unfair to place the blame solely on Tinder/Technology.
Not only entertainment suffers from a tyranny of choice, but also sex and relationships.
I heard in an interview that 50 years ago, people used to basically used to fall in love with heir neighbours and coworkers. Modern dating means browsing hundreds of other people in your city like they're products on a store shelf, always with the feeling there might be someone better just a couple swipes away.
Plus one to this. I think it's both true that the app-based dating world is demoralising and heavily biased towards a privileged minority of users and that the pre-app world was even worse.
I don't disagree entirely with your sentiment either. But the solution is still the same. People need to stop virtualizing relationships. Apps, especially for dating, NEED to go.
Probably shouting into the void here and pretty soon society will be a complete wreck of social dystopia once older generations pass away and nobody has had the complete social lifecycle. But damnit I can try!
I've never read an article on this that really rang a bell for me.
I think the new culture simply sucks at relating to one another.
That old dream from the past twenty years of people dying to relate to another, has evaporated and we're fumbling in earnest attempts to open up to one another.
The dating apps are an advanced form of speed dating which used to be a niche thing for people who were honest, busy and knew what they would want in a relationship. I.e. people in their 30s. With infinite supply of partners on apps, stakes feel low and disapproval is amplified.
A woman hit on me whilst I was walking the dog and I was so deep in thought about work, I didn't even realize. She looked dejected walking home and I felt bad for her when I caught up to myself.
We are not as setup for relating to spontaneous, awkward and authentic human desire as we were before.
I think what gets lost is that long term relationships have been more utilitarian than anyone likes to admit. Who doesn't love a love story, or want to feel the rush of first attraction?
The problem is that it isn't enough to build a life out of. You need a practical, working partnership to raise a family and app dating isn't geared to that goal. The apps give a monstrous illusion there might be something better on the next swipe, and it just isn't true.
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