Tell me, what do you consider "toxic masculinity"? You're not really presenting a frame for us to discuss this in.
>And it is typically more harmful for more people on average than the feminine expressions of same.
Yeah, no. This is borderline sexist. It's one thing to argue "the workplace only allows masculinity in its toxic form". It's another entirely to go "feminine better".
Well, toxic masculinity isn't really a thing I recognize.
There is masculinity but claiming it's toxic is an absurd form of shaming which rests on the assumption that there are masculine traits which are objectively toxic.
The comment above is a little bit of a stretch (I'm not sure I'd equate working more to toxic masculinity exactly), but this isn't about being a man: the CTO may have been female, that in itself wouldn't invalidate the comment.
Masculinity in this context is about gendered behaviours (behaviours traditionally expected of men). Toxic masculinity is any such behaviours that have a negative impact on the subject, those around them, or society. Women can also contribute to toxic masculinity.
In fact, within certain corporate cultures, where promotions have traditionally been awarded to men, it may benefit women's careers to adopt such toxic behaviours.
There is no toxic masculinity, only toxic people. The term toxic masculinity serves no purpose other than to denigrate a class of people that share masculine characteristics. It's ironic that I most often see the concept pushed by people that claim to be against sexism.
> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.)
I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/media? Also, can you give any examples of "toxic femininity" behaviours?
If either of these is "no/none", then I'd prefer if you (and everybody else) avoided using this term.
As a man, I certainly don't think masculinity is toxic (although of course it can be in extreme forms, like anything). Male empowerment movements on the other hand I have found to be incredibly toxic in practice. There are definitely pockets that aren't, but those seem to be few and far between.
And you are trying to spin masculinity in general as toxic. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity or toxic femininity. Some people are just jerks.
I didn't say all masculinity is toxic. I think masculinity is fine but then you have things like this:
"Man up"
"Boys will be boys"
"You throw like a girl"/"[blank] is for girls"
"When men were men..."
"No means yes, yes means anal"
You can't deny there are some really terrible behaviours and expectations that have been normalised in our culture and they are considered as being inherent to masculinity.
Here's some more Bulverism: What's there to defend? Colloquially toxic masculinity means exactly what the OP was going for. It's to jockey for power, position, and status at the expense of others (and often detrimental to their own goals). Hey! Women sometimes also display these toxic masculine traits commonly found in male primates! You should be more inclusive and call it toxic humanity! has to be one of the least useful things you can bring to the overall discussion.
Right, that stereotype, and its use to justify sexual assault, is absolutely toxic. But there's nothing masculine about it, hence my objection to using the phrase "toxic masculinity" to describe it.
Completely disagree with you. The idea that to be masculine means to be domineering and aggressive is toxic.
Obviously this is not what it means to be masculine, but many suggest that it is. Promoting anti-social toxic behaviors and equating them with masculinity is toxic masculinity.
Yes and: This is straight up misogyny. As I understand it, "toxic masculinity" is stuff that harms males, like telling boys that real men don't cry, which then has all sorts of knock-on effects.
Seems to me that if you're taking completely non-gender-specific toxic behavior like belittling employees for not staying late, and assigning it the label "masculinity", it is you who is engaging in the harmful stereotypes.
>(And as for "toxic masculinity", wouldn't this be better described as "toxic femininity"?)
No. It's modern masculine culture that doesn't allow men to express their emotions for fear of appearing weak or "beta." The toxicity derives from that pathological aspect of masculine culture. Women doing what men do and reinforcing this toxic aspect of masculine culture are also engaging in toxic masculinity.
This is not what toxic masculinity means. It's not saying masculinity is toxic, toxic is a qualifier not a description. It's used to talk about those attitudes which are ascribed by some people to be super masculine, but actually are just unhealthy (like hyper aggression, or the idea, ironically, that men shouldn't ask for help or complain about anything)
I think there are both beneficial and toxic aspects of both masculinity and feminity. My issue is not as much with the phrase itself but the way it's used.
>And it is typically more harmful for more people on average than the feminine expressions of same.
Yeah, no. This is borderline sexist. It's one thing to argue "the workplace only allows masculinity in its toxic form". It's another entirely to go "feminine better".
reply