Having been stuck for 15 minutes trying to make a right turn by the street mall in Santa Monica, yes there are places where defensive driving will totally stop you. There's a spot there that's only one lane each way when cars are parked and pedestrians will not stop and have a walk during the green. If you want to go right or left you have to nose in and cut people off at certain times of day.
Yeah, left turn on green always scares me as I have twice come close to hitting pedestrians that I just didn't see (at first) because my line of sight to them was blocked by the driver side pillar. Notably, both of these streets were three or more lanes in each direction, not sure if that adds a risk factor.
It's not about right of way. It's about being safe. I realize this because I drive defensively. If you can't drive according to the rules, don't drive.
I've not driven in San Francisco. Are cars allowed to sit and block an entire lane until they can turn left? That is how things worked in the rural town I grew up in, but I can't imagine it working in a city. All the streets in the city I live in now which are too narrow for a turn lane are either one-way (thus have no need for a protected left) or they prohibit left turns.
>in my experience, the Cruise cars are very hesitant to make left turns
I'm sure unprotected (i.e. no arrow) left hand turns remain one of the more difficult routine scenarios to fine tune. What works in (I assume) Chandler Arizona and San Francisco are probably two very different things. A large busy city like San Francisco simply requires a degree of aggression--Pittsburgh lefts, cutting through fairly small gaps, etc.--that would be inappropriate in a calmer and less busy environment.
Protected left turns don’t work well without insanely wide roads. There is not room for protected left turn lanes in most of sf, and too much traffic to do one direction at a time signals.
My driver's ed teacher said a similar thing about right of way - you never /have/ right of way, you are given it. I try to drive defensively, but it's a challenge when others are able to choose not to in ways that affect my driving.
It is a two lane road constricted with packed street parking on both sides of the road. This being SF, even in the best situation where there isn't a garbage truck double parked in the other lane, I'm sure a U turn isn't feasible, or even a 3 point turn around. Backing up was the only option, yet the road is two lane, so more traffic than a residential one lane coming from behind is also a concern.
They mention unprotected left turns. I'm really curious how this will be handled in LA because there are a lot, and if you aren't at least a little aggressive, you will miss lights constantly. And some lights are miserable if the cars turning left in front of you are passive, and only one makes it through per light change.
I could imagine that left turns like you mentioned would be systematically disadvantaged, but doesn't that just mean you should circle around so that you are going north? If instead you were going west and competing against northbound traffic I find it hard to believe you would be systematically disadvantaged; a space is equally likely a priori to clear out when you have a green as when they have a green, no?
It isn't a perfect grid and the streets aren't all wide. There is no shortage of two way streets where left turns are impossible without skirting the law.
Driving in California, the best roads literally make it illegal to turn left during rush hour when the intersection doesn’t have a left turn lane. People still get where they’re going.
Yes! Something here in Boston that Google and Waze never take into account is that there are some left turns that at rush hour that can really only be accomplished by the most aggressive drivers. Sorry, I'm not doing that.
- if you're turning left, pull forward until you are into the second half of the intersection but don't actually cross into the opposing traffic
- cars behind you can still navigate around you
- when the light just turns red and the opposing traffic stops, finish the left turn. you're blocking the cross traffic that just turned green anyway so you're safe from that.
I’ve driven in places that forbid left turns and the impact is nowhere near what you say it is - your example appears very specific to your town where things seem particularly bad but also your phrasing (“punished” by traffic - guess what, if you’re driving, you are traffic) is not very objective for a rational, general counterpoint.
If you come to LA, you'll see there's no way to avoid it. The majority of lights are unprotected left turn lanes. The cops here even break the laws and no one judges. Sure, everyone could make 3 right turns instead, but I'd imagine if everyone did that the damage from wasted fuel, smog, and extra traffic would outweigh the few accidents that happen due to cheating the left turns.
Not from the US so don't know what the rules say, but I do agree with the parent's comment.
"Driving defensively" doesn't mean "give them the right of way". It means that if they put on the blinker, they're probably thinking of changing lanes even though it may not be safe to do so (and don't have the right of way).
It's the type of situation where it's better to be safe than right.
No, what you're describing sounds a hell of a lot safer. (It's also how people make left turns in Vancouver. The fact that it's illegal in Seattle infuriates me to no end.)
The Pittsburgh left sounds like a recipe to get T-boned by an inattentive driver. Pulling into the intersection, and making a left turn when it is safe is a much better alternative.
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