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Then why even bother having the conversation? No one is free of guilt here, which was my point.


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Is it even meaningful to talk of guilt without morality?

Nobody is implying that you should feel guilty, it was just an observation.

I think the point is they shouldn't suffer the guilt, not that they won't.

OP didn’t insinuate people should feel guilty. Those feelings you are having are of your own causing and interpretation. He was just stating facts

Guilt by association. Not an argument.

There's no question of whether you have the right to assume guilt.

It's only that, logically, if you rush to judgment on anything, you don't in fact care about the issue that much. You can't convince someone rational that you both do and don't concern yourself with it.


Exactly, and even if you did, why would that unearned guilt stop you from being concerned about yourself and the people directly around you?

i didn't say anything about guilt. i was replying to the post above me asking about why some have turned against him.

To anyone who feels attacked by this article, here are three things to keep in mind:

In life, guilt is optional.

If you think you're expected to understand something you don't, it's not your problem. [0]

Finally, the world is full of different people with different value systems: if you don't share someone else's, you don't have to invalidate it, you can just choose not to accept it. No one can judge you without your permission.

[0] http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/01/13/LawOfConve...


Then they shouldn't have any personal guilt..

You're correct that it's not a true statement, but that fact alone is of little comfort when trying to overcome the guilt.

So, don't allow yourself to be manipulated by guilt over something you have no power over? That seems reasonable to me.

What? They were talking about gratitude not guilt

That's not how I read that. Absence of guilt removes the programmed automatic response enabling a person to make a decision based on logic or truth. It doesn't mean that they will, that depends on their motivations.

It has nothing at all to do with guilt.

Guilt is too strong of term. But it is very much used as a kind of penalty box, or way of distancing the receiver from the speaker. And as far as enlightening those who supposedly need uplifting to the higher, more evolved plane that the speaker inhabits -- it just doesn't do much.


you thought they were appropriately feeling guilty but seeking outside encouragement to reject that feeling.

No, that's not remotely my intent at all.

Most people raise children on either a guilt model or shame model. I raised mine on the basis of enlightened self interest.

Understandably, many people read in accusations of guilt where none exist. They've been trained that way.

I'm only replying in hopes it provides some clarification for the person I originally replied to. I care not at all what others think of me or my motives etc. But I sincerely wish that their takeaway is "You don't need outside validation if you can see with your own eyes that it was for the best." and not "Here is some random internet stranger just adding to your pain because the world is an awful place full of awful people."

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to try to clarify that detail.


It’s not clear how (b) is relevant to the conversation.

Regarding (a) I would have the exact same reply. Unless the word “equivalent” is playing a critical role for you, because it will be impossible to prove or disprove equivalence. My experience of guilt may not even be equivalent to yours strictly speaking, and we belong to the same species, I assume ;-).


Agreed, there is no way the guilt there is equal.

We certainly disagree, however this isn't really about your or my subjective experience - it is about whether these kinds of tacting induce guilt in other people.

I take it you believe they do not, despite the contradicting evidence of people here supporting the idea that they do.

I agree that not everyone will feel guilt at each particular message, but I am saying you are wrong if you believe that none of these messages induce guilt in anyone.

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