Hacker Read top | best | new | newcomments | leaders | about | bookmarklet login

>has never been build

Unless you count pumped storage, in which case it has.



sort by: page size:

> Pumped water storage as we have had for about a hundred years now.

Won't happen all geographically advantageous places are already taken.


>3) hydro pumped storage

Not likely to be a widely useful storage mechanism except in very specific geography.

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/


>But this has none of the conveniences of pumped hydro - nature already built the holding tank and you only need a pump and generator.

Only if you're in an area with favourable geography, of course...


You now insist that no hilltop pumped-hydro storage without a river exists?

It is an odd choice of falsehood to insist upon, when it may so easily be looked up.


> And most already build hydroelectricity facilities can be retrofitted (although at high cost) to become pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities.

Really? You need a huge downstream reservoir to hold the water that you are going to pump to the upstream reservoir.


>... and you wouldn't also have to pervert the flow of a river in order to build it.

You don't necessarily need a river to be involved at all for pumped storage. Just build two reservoirs at different heights.


You are reading words that aren't there. The top level comment this thread started with is:

>You couldn't be more Dam wrong.

I am talking about dams, not pumped storage.


> Storage is talked about in the similar ways as molten salt reactor. It is a nice concept but I don't know any nation which energy grid uses it.

Wikipedia says otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...


> There are not enough sites...

This is always claimed, and is always false. Please do not repeat falsehoods.

Existing hydro generation needs a watershed. Pumped hydro does not. All it needs is a disused hilltop and earthen dike, and not always the dike.

It doesn't always need the hill: underground cavities work to pump water up out of, and to drain into.

Batteries will always be the most expensive alternative. They will be used in limited amounts, mainly for very short-term (overnight) storage.


> There are not, in fact, a limited number of pumped storage sites, and you do not, in fact, need any alpine lakes. Dikes are not commonly made of concrete.

There are a limited number of economically viable pumped storage sites. You can find papers claiming an effectively limitless amount of hydroelectric storage. The problem is that most of these places either already use dams for most of their energy production and thus don't need to build any storage. Or, they are in extremely remote areas where construction is prohibitively expensive. There's huge hydroelectric potential in Tibet. But that's incredibly remote and prohibitively expensive to develop.

> And, there are numerous other cheap alternative storage media, for places without hills.

Such as?


> Pumped storage

Very limited in where you can build it

> grid scale batteries

Don't exist. You severely underestimate the needs of the grid

> syngas

Aka burning furl and calling it carbon neutral. And have they passed the 1MW mark


You can't build pumped hydro storage. You can only "discover" suitable sites.

And pumped hydro isn't a panacea either.

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/


> I was always wondering why there are no systems converting the unused electricity in potential energy by moving water to a higher ground

There are a bunch of pumped storage facilities around [1]. But they work best at massive scale, so suitable locations are somewhat limited. Plus they are expensive to build and often face environmental protests (similar to building dams). Still, it's a solution I'm a fan of.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...


> why pumped storage is actually not going to work, or why we don't have more of it already

(1) Requires a lot of land. (2) It needs a height difference, at the required scale prohibitively expensive to make an artificial one. (3) Requires lots of water.


There is only limited number of sites where building pumped hydro is possible, and lots of them are already taken.

> One flashy idea for storing energy goes something like this: dam a river,

Incorrect. Or rather not necessarily correct. Pumped hydro does not necessarily require damning a river.

> Making matters worse, about a quarter of the energy is cannibalized to do all that pumping.

Pumped hydro is largely considered one of the most efficient forms of energy storage, beating most other methods by a fair amount.

> This approach can be deployed far faster than dam construction, and free of protest (except perhaps from dam builders).

We can't do both?


I don't think there are very many places that pumped hydro can be built, where it hasn't been built. You also need quite the significant height difference for it to be meaningfull.

Yes, that was a hydro-generation dam.

However, it is simply not true that hydro-pump storage never has a dam.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station

In fact, when you look at the list of pumped storage stations, the vast majority of them have dams:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...

next

Legal | privacy