It would be a lot easier to talk about this subject if it hadn't been so shamelessly exaggerated for propaganda purposes.
The Chinese government has, by all appearances, carried out a harsh crackdown on what it views as separatism and religious extremism. It has forced large numbers of people to go through political indoctrination, based on suspicions of being sympathetic to the Uyghur separatist movement or of harboring fundamentalist religious beliefs.
The Chinese government has also begun imposing the 3-child policy on Uyghur families. The 1-child policy used to only apply to the Han majority. It has been relaxed to 3 children, but is being applied more broadly.
However, the Uyghur population continues to grow. The Uyghur language continues to be an official language in Xinjiang and it is one of the primary languages used to teach children in state schools. And as I said before, life expectancy and average incomes are increasing among Uyghurs.
The Chinese government doesn't intend to "remove" the Uyghur people. It is trying to stamp out separatism, both by implementing harsh police methods and by pumping money into the region to improve living standards.
This is not what a genocide looks like. That term is just propaganda in this case, meant to influence people who aren't at all familiar with the situation in Xinjiang.
> The Uyghur population is increasing. The birth rate is similar to that of the Han majority. Uyghur life expectancy is increasing. Incomes and literacy are increasing.
>”Genocide" means a systematic attempt to physically destroy an ethnic or religious group. The 3-child policy in China (which applies to the Han majority as well) does not even come close to being anything like an attempt to physically eliminate the Uyghur people.
There is no basis for your claim that the forced sterilization/abortions of the Uyghur people occurs at similar rates within the Chinese majority, or that it is merely an enforcement of the three child policy.
The Uyghur population is increasing. The birth rate is similar to that of the Han majority. Uyghur life expectancy is increasing. Incomes and literacy are increasing.
"Genocide" means a systematic attempt to physically destroy an ethnic or religious group. The 3-child policy in China (which applies to the Han majority as well) does not even come close to being anything like an attempt to physically eliminate the Uyghur people.
It's extremely cynical to call this a "genocide." It completely devalues the word.
The claims of sterilization, genocide and cleansing are largely propaganda.
This propaganda takes a kernel of truth (China began enforcing the 3-child policy on Uyghurs, who were previously exempt - the policy previously only applied to the Han majority), and distorts it beyond all recognition (China is sterilizing all the Uyghurs).
Given the public's utter lack of knowledge about China in the US and Europe, it's easy to sell this sort propaganda.
It would be so much easier to discuss the actual issues (such as China's harsh crackdown on separatism in Xinjiang) if the US government were not so shamelessly distorting them for political reasons. One almost finds oneself having to defend the Chinese government, because the US government has so little compunction about pushing big lies like the "Uyghur genocide." China did use heavy police measures and political indoctrination to go after people it suspects of supporting separatism. No, it's not trying to wipe out the Uyghurs (or to do anything even remotely like that).
Nobody in the public would consider what China is doing genocide.
The word "genocide" means mass murder of an entire ethnic group. You're using the word because you know that that's how people interpret it, and you want the shock value.
Exactly as I said, when pressed, you try to redefine the word to mean something completely different.
By the way, even the far lesser claims you're making are incorrect. The Uyghur population in Xinjiang continues to grow, life expectancy is increasing, the language not only continues to be spoken but even continues to be the primary language used to teach Uyghur children in school. There is political repression, targeted particularly at what China regards as separatism and religious extremism, but the "genocide" accusation is pure bad faith.
I'm making what are pretty obvious, factual claims. I don't think that any of the factual statements I'm making are even controversial. It's just the interpretation that has suddenly dramatically shifted in the US and some of its allied countries.
The UN Genocide Convention is very clear about what is and is not genocide. There's no possible way to construe a situation like this, in which the population and life expectancy of the group is increasing, as genocide. In fact, describing it as genocide sounds like propaganda.
If the Chinese government were trying to physically annihilate the Uyghurs, which is what the very serious word "genocide" means, it would be obvious. We would not be discussing whether or not the 3-child limit was being more aggressively enforced on Uyghurs. We would be discussing mass death.
I don't need the CCP to tell me that "genocide" implies mass killing and physical annihilation of a people. I'm perfectly capable of seeing that the word "genocide" is being misused in a highly manipulative way in the political discussion nowadays, and of pushing back against that.
I understand that's the claim, but on the other hand, the biggest Muslim ethnic group (Hui) aren't repressed.
Which makes you ask, what's the difference between Uyghurs and other Muslim minority groups like the Hui? Well, the biggest as far as I can tell is the influx of new, extremist ideologies like Wahhabism that are actually quite _incompatible_ with the indigenous culture. The reasons why that happened seem complex, but maybe you can say it's an unfortunate outcome of US and Russian meddling in the region over decades.
It's absolutely true that there's increased security and surveillance targeted at Uyghurs in the region, I've seen a lot of videos taken by travelers from the area that confirm that. There's also a coordinated and systemic program of re-education, as admitted by Chinese authorities. I'm sure there is a non-zero amount of abuses as part of this whole program, but I don't think that's the same thing as genocide. & I think the stated reason in their propaganda for _why_ this is all happening passes the smell test... Otherwise, wouldn't they be repressing Hui Muslims as well?
(Also see Tibet -- people said the same thing about Tibetan culture 20 years ago, but it's pretty well-understood now that there were foreign-funded separatist elements back then)
there are a few rhetorical tricks here. what am i denying exactly? the genocide? yes i am. it's not a genocide. there isn't a planned extermination of uyghurs going on. there have been planned exterminations of armenians from anatolia and jews from europe.
on the other hand: am i denying the existence of fishy "re-education camps" targeting one ethnic group and one only, where they are brought in under very opaque circumstances? no, i am not denying that.
there are a bunch of things there, a full timeline of the "conflict", a couple of articles debunking both poor google maps journalism and a few poorly-made BBC & vice docs on the matter.
there's also the fact that some of the "punishments" against the uyghurs are forcing children to go to school, to mandarin-speaking public ones even, which is the same policy most countries in the world adopt (a recent request in france to partially allow schooling in catalan in the region of perpignan has been rejected). there are some claims that state-funded xinjiang schools are even bilingual but i haven't dug enough on it.
i won't comment on the wuhan issue because i don't really know enough about it, but as someone who is born in an island with plenty of US bases i laugh at everyone claiming china is "flexing their muscles" with their navy.
to be clear: nobody approaching any of those bases gets allowed in, just like in the "xinjiang camps". does this excuse china? no, it doesn't, but we should probably be fair in our judgment.
This is "population control" targeted at a specific ethnic and religious minority, not population control in general. China is trying to crowd out the Uighur population by settling ethnic Han Chinese from elsewhere in the country and by imprisonment and forced sterilization of the population. This campaign meets the UN criteria for genocide.
The CCP is also discriminating against Uyghur marriages. That’s impacting people outside of internment camps. A policy which removes some pressure from the excess male births from the rest of the country and destroys an unwanted ethnic group. Combined with some forced sterilization and forced contraception and you get a “mild” form of genocide that destroys a people without producing mass graves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
Chinese government statistics show that from 2015 to 2018, birth rates in the mostly Uyghur regions of Hotan and Kashgar plunged by more than 60%.
But the question is, _why?_ What's their incentive to apply more cruel population control on one ethnic group over others?
It's a culture- and religion-based form of oppression. The ethnic Uighur people are Muslims, for the most part. They form a distinct subculture within China. The Communist Party sees their nonconformity as a threat to social harmony. That's why, in addition to forced sterilization and forced birth control, the government has imposed forced re-education in concentration camps.
Their goal is to destroy the Uighur population's distinctiveness as a subculture in China. It is deliberate ethnocide (by forced internment) and genocide (by reproductive suppression).
What we're seeing is a complete cultural genocide by the Chinese government. The propaganda, cameras, and security noted in the article are just the tip of the iceberg. The US government should be hitting China hard with the Magnitsky Act for these human rights violations.
I don't know what point you are trying to make; the intent is key, but the intent is clear. The Chinese government is targetting the Uigher people and their supporters with the intention of destroying the Uigher cultural identity.
The Chinese government is doing all of these things to the Uigher people, and I am not going to replicate the exhaustively cited information that is summarized in the article[1] below to support each individual claim. I recognize that Wikipedia articles may have bias, but the bulk of the citations in that article are from recognized news sources.
If you insist: how about the Uyghur population decreasing instead of increasing? That would be a good indicator that a genocide is actually taking place.
Anyways, please don't dismiss my comment. What is Beijing's supposed motive here?
The Chinese Government is actively committing genocide against the Uyghur people. They literally have internment camps, multiple governments have denounced this, there are photos.
What China is doing to Uighurs qualifies as genocide
> [The atrocity in Xinjiang] very specifically meets one of the five criteria set forth by the United Nations Convention for the Punishment and Prevention of the Crime of Genocide from 1948, which specifically says the suppression of birth.
Genocide specifically refers to the organized extermination of a people. That's not what's happening in Xinjiang. Nobody claims that. They claim it's a 'cultural genocide', which is a very incendiary way of saying China is trying to stamp out Uyghur culture.
Let's recenter the definition of genocide. From google:
> the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
Now to your points:
> religious conversion
1. No, forced religious conversion is not genocide in my book.
> Forced sterilization
2. Look, I'm not a fan of this law either, but sterilization in-lieu-of fine is one of the remedies in China for breaking the two (previously one)-child law and is also applied to Han Chinese. The Uyghur population is still growing at a faster rate than Han Chinese.
> the occasional organ harvesting
3. Awful and at large scale, absolutely a genocide. My understanding was that this had been done against Falun Gong in the early 2000s - do you have evidence on this practice continuing against Uyghurs circa now?
I'm not, but I'm in contact with a Uyhur as well as a non-Uyghur Xinjiang resident, and I've researched this topic for a long time. See also my other reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34789836
TLDR: heavy-handed anti-terrorism response, even if it deserves criticism, is not at all the same as "millions in concentration camps", "forced labor" or even "genocide". Many allegations you read in the media are grave distortions of reality for the purpose of geopolitical attacks and fostering consent for a war against China.
The Chinese government has, by all appearances, carried out a harsh crackdown on what it views as separatism and religious extremism. It has forced large numbers of people to go through political indoctrination, based on suspicions of being sympathetic to the Uyghur separatist movement or of harboring fundamentalist religious beliefs.
The Chinese government has also begun imposing the 3-child policy on Uyghur families. The 1-child policy used to only apply to the Han majority. It has been relaxed to 3 children, but is being applied more broadly.
However, the Uyghur population continues to grow. The Uyghur language continues to be an official language in Xinjiang and it is one of the primary languages used to teach children in state schools. And as I said before, life expectancy and average incomes are increasing among Uyghurs.
The Chinese government doesn't intend to "remove" the Uyghur people. It is trying to stamp out separatism, both by implementing harsh police methods and by pumping money into the region to improve living standards.
This is not what a genocide looks like. That term is just propaganda in this case, meant to influence people who aren't at all familiar with the situation in Xinjiang.
reply