There is nothing wrong about Russia or sharing russian media. Demonization of Russia is crazy and hypocritical. We should start demonizing the USA more, for their wars of agression against Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Panama and many more. Russia is unfairly demonized, and it is a vicious demonization that is not given to countries that have done far worse to the world, like as the USA.
I also can't believe the big bad USA has turned the Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine, etc on Russia. It's because the media is just too weak in Russia, China, Iran, North Korea so they haven't been able to communicate their upstanding values clearly enough.
Ah yes, good old fashioned what-aboutism. The staple of Russian foreign propaganda.
Of course we understand, until Russia has killed and maimed at least as many people as the entire west combined, then it’s done nothing wrong. Anyone who suggests otherwise is clearly a hypocrite.
What a pathetic argument, surely you’re paid to come up with something better than that?
The phrase "the free world" rubs me the wrong way. I'm obviously against what Russia is doing, any sane man would be. But as a middle eastern, the US to us has been 10x worse than Russia: They killed a million Iraqis, they killed Syrian civilians by bombing hospitals and schools. They overthrew a functional government in Libya, and they supported Syrian/Iraqi separatists (Kurds). They forcefully tried to build a military base in Lebanon. Not only that, but they also tortured, raped, and humiliated innocent Iraqis in Abou Gharib, without any major repercussions.
Just because the US did it, doesn't mean that Russia is justified or less wrong, both are wrong, and neither get to call out the other for humanitarian reasons.
The failure of the United States to provide a positive counterweight to propaganda due to launching two wars of aggression filled with warcrimes is not Russia's fault, nor Assange's.
The United States is responsible for sowing the good, not Russia for not hiding the bad.
How much karma do you need on HN to downvote? Because this deserves one.
How often are we going to repeat this point?
Okay, as slowly and clearly as I can:
"Two wrongs don't make a right."
Just because the US does bad thing X, doesn't mean we can't talk about another country doing bad thing X.
Please, for the love of baby Jesus and his family. Please. Please.
I won't even top it off with a "the country's people are not the same as its government," or anything like it. I just beg of you, please, please stop using this line of reasoning.
I'm so exhausted of seeing it. It wears me down.
PS: GP has a point, he sketches the context. Fine. "Russia is not the only one, also US." Okay, it's true. But when you say "don't talk about Russia, because US!" then no. No, no, no, no. No.
EDIT: Can't reply to "rational-future", so I'll say it here: No, not at all. The opposite. As I said: "GP has a point". My problem is here:
> Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia.
This is wrong. Telling people to shut up because their government / countrymen / ... does the same thing. Sure, call them out for being hypocrites. But even hypocrites have a right to speak. So, yeah: do talk about the US. Sure. Give me context. As long as you leave all the room for the original discussion.
I'd normally agree with you, but we're in a situation right now where Russia is waging a brutal war of aggression that has already killed more people than the US did in Afghanistan over 20 years (which, to be clear, is a war we never should have started). That same Russia has a well-developed propaganda arm that has been very active since long before the war in trying to draw favorable comparisons between their behavior and the US's. In this context, I'll take the potentially-unearned downvotes over letting Russian propaganda have its say.
This is fine but kind of getting away from my main point, which is that the NYT is denigrating Russia, not because of it's economic and social problems which are real, but because it is an independent country that is rich in natural resources, therefore a target for the West. But it is too powerful to be threatened militarily, hence articles like this about its problems instead.
Thank you for the citations. I agree with you on all points, my point was simply that Russia is not a superlative example either. Both the U.S. and Russia are locked in a murky political limbo with all sorts of controversies, but neither should be a shining example to the other.
Russia has (as other commenters and myself noted elsewhere) historically been against privacy and press freedom when it's inconvenient for them, and has a host of other human rights violations. But you're right, I'm definitely not attacking Russia from a superior position as an American here :)
You are most certainly right about Putin, but that's not the point. You can't just blame censorship and failing policies on a foreign country. What I find truly intriguing is this lack of self criticism on the part of many people in the US. And about annexing neighbours, let's not talk about Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Sudan, Somalia and all the shady things that happened in Central/South America in the 60's.
I'm perfectly aware of the US's flaws. What Russia is doing - a war of conquest against a democracy, involving war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide - is not morally equivalent.
Look, the problem here is you are comparing bad with really really bad. People aren't defending the US via Russia here, people are saying don't defend Russia via the US.
Can you really imagine USA invading Mexico to extend its area of influence?
Facebook is filled with anti-US and anti-western arguments. VKontakte is filled with love for Putin. Apples to apples here...
Not all media is owned by weapon manufacturers. There's tons of independent media here, unlike in Russia, where the government dictates what the media are allowed to say. They can't call the war a war, for example. That is propaganda. The West allows all viewpoints, including the Russian one. It's just that the Russian propaganda doesn't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.
Also, Iraq was not a NATO war. It was just the US and UK, and many NATO members opposed it. I would certainly still like to see the US war crimes in Iraq prosecuted. But that does not in any way justify the Russian invasion or war crimes. Two wrongs don't make a right.
This highlights one of my growing ethical dillemas.
I am a US citizen, and sometimes I am really ashamed of my country. We have done some really bad stuff. We’ve done a whole lot of shady stuff that is complicated to pass simple judgement on. But the US has done good stuff as well. They loan money, send aid, rebuild, provide. Some times the motives are duplicitous in these acts of good. But the bottom line is, when I travel abroad I feel like I can confidently say “we’re like a two year old, sometimes we do sweet/good things, and other times we’re naughty.”
When it comes to USSR/Russia, I am not aware of the good acts. It’s not just that thy do bad things, it’s that I never hear of any of the good things they do in the world at large.
And so I’m honestly curious, is Russia as a foreign actor just that much more self interested? Or do we not hear about it in the West, because it doesn’t pay to report on it.
The US government does not "control" the media, and allows private news organisations (Fox News, The Wall St Journal) that effectively act as a mouthpiece for the opposition party to flourish. Not so in Russia, where independent news organisations are under constant attack.
You're absolutely right that the US has done some deplorable things in its past (including, as we now know, the recent state-sanctioned torture of probably innocent foreigners). That doesn't make what Russia's doing today, in fairly plain sight, any less repugnant.
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