> and we hear a lot of stories of ppl from other "free healthcare" OECD countries having to come here for decent care
You'll hear that in both directions, to the point where the CDC has a page for Americans seeking care abroad, typically due to exorbitant costs here. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/page/medical-tourism
> i'd rather a system where i can get better by paying more than a system where i'm at the mercy of some bureaucrat or waiting list.
There are very few countries in which this is the case; you can opt for private healthcare in Europe, Australia, etc. if you like. There's simply also a specific, reasonable level of care available to all. (The idea that the US lacks bureaucrats and waiting lists is, incidentally, funny to most folks who've tried to see a specialist on short order, or had insurance deny coverage for something.)
>hypocritical indeed: Miami man who flew to China worried he might have COVID-19. He may owe thousands
Hypocritical? Sounds like a completely orthogonal problem to me. You can have insanely unaffordable healthcare in authoritarian states and liberal democracies. If anything, the US is an outlier considering that healthcare works well in every other liberal democracy.
>Why should a stranger be forced to pay for your medical care?
Those who don't want to pay for others usually leave for the US.
I've known Europeans or Indians too who think there are too many havenots in their country who will be dependent on state for their care and they knew who will foot the bill, so they left for the US.
There are all kind of people, some prefer private healthcare because they want to receive cutting edge treatment for all money they've and there are some who want to receive free treatment even if cutting edge treatment is not feasible for all of them.
> At least in US you get the medical treatment first and then they hand you a large bill to pay. In poor countries the hospitals will turn you away until you pay a significant sum in advance (not exaggerating it has happened to me).
To complete the picture, in the truly civilized countries when you're sick you just go to the hospital, and they take care of you, no strings attached.
The whole world is not made just of the USA and some banana republics.
> Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them?
Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes.
Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.
> I thought health care was free in most of europe.
In countries where it's "free" one pays high monthly insurances, in countries with dysfunctional public healthcare systems services cost a fraction of what you'd pay in US but the salaries are proportionally lower.
> But if I go to Australia, Canada, UK, or any other country, how do I get access to this cheap healthcare without becoming a citizen or paying taxes?
You'd likely pay more than a resident/citizen who may not pay or may a token amount. But this full price will still be very small in comparison to US (eg full price of doctor's consultation in France is like 25 EUR).
Even Switzerland which is expensive for Europe in terms of healthcare is cheap comparatively (a simple ER visit might be a few hundreds, not thousands).
> Healthcare costs are by far the #1 reason why I want to move out of the U.S. as soon as possible.
Hope you and your family are in perfect health if you plan to immigrate to a country with socialized healthcare. Most such countries will reject families with an autistic child, for example, based on the notion that said child will be heavily dependent on govt/health services.
In my country (also EU) the public health system is most definitely not "free". It is paid for by a universal tax called (insidiously and inaccurately) "health insurance".
> There's lately though talk about unvaccinated COVID patients bearing the cost nonetheless.
Calls for true insurance (individualized, based on actual health and habits) are completely infeasible for political reasons.
What I can see happening is the existing mandatory health tax PLUS extra payments for non-grata groups. Some constitutional changes may be needed, but since all the right people would profit (extra $$$), that's just a technical detail in this day and age.
> Personally, due to experienck, I prefer to forego insurance and get my healthcare abroad. Better prices than paying deductibles, better services. But I can not recommend that for everyone.
If you're in the US, that choice could bankrupt you if you ever need major emergency medical care, because of an accident or some condition requiring emergency surgery, like a brain hemorrhage.
> but what could you have gotten if you paid as much there as you pay in the US?
If you ignore the fact that I was already paying substantially more for it with higher taxes, the answer is still nothing. Countries with public healthcare don’t have expansive private healthcare systems, and nowhere in the world has a healthcare system that offers the level of service that the US system does. For example my sister was giving birth in New Zealand, and I wanted to just pay out of pocket for a private hospital for her. There are zero private hospitals in the country that offer this service, so her only option was to go to her local (and notoriously bad) hospital. She remained in the maternity ward for nearly a week, because while she was there that hospital had its 15th norovirus outbreak for the year.
> I lived in 2 European countries with amazing healthcare systems available for free or almost free but had either: amazingly long waiting times (measured in years) for anything but the most basic interventions OR an amazingly difficult process to get referred by your GP into any specialist care (GP generally recommends paracetamol and rest for everything).
I think it's ridiculous that someone has to consider moving countries, which is no small task and out of reach for many, just to be able to afford their healthcare.
> There is no health care at all. If you want to see a doctor, the only option is to travel to another country, even thought health care is financed from taxes, which are one of the highest in the world.
I've heard this from other people who moved to America and had to pay for their healthcare. Back home, they had to barter things or having connections to get appointments or good care as well.
> Your argument is sound. It is however, built on one glaring assumption: the people in charge of the publicly funded healthcare systems are primarily incentivized to find cheap and safe treatments for the illness.
In many countries, they do. In some (like Brazil and India), they even rebelled and fought for their right to do so at some point (saving lives of people in other countries by the way).
I mean, in theory, all governments should care, but some are corrupted, and some have been designed to work against the best interests of the patient.
> is this the supposedly high quality treatment that U.S. citizens get that is so much more expensive as opposed to the „socialized“ insurance we get in Europe
I am an American who has lived in several countries and had experience several medical systems.
The US has the best care… if you have access to it. This access can be limited by geography, insurance, money, awareness of the specific doctor, etc.
In a random provincial area with no university medical school nearby, the treatment will often be quite sketchy.
In other countries I’ve lived in, the best medical care was still in the large cities, but the standard in provincial areas was to a much higher standard (imho) than in provincial areas in the US.
There's also the higher than normal risk of needing medical treatment in a country with either higher medical costs or lower healthcare quality.
In my country of birth, covid treatment is free* in state owned hospitals for citizens and non citizens. But it's not the case in other countries.
*Taxpayer funded
reply