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lolinder 11 days ago | parent | context | on: GitHub code search is generally available
Those numbers are a bit misleading because they split up the JetBrains products, making JetBrains look like a smaller market than it actually is. If you add up all their tools, they hit 94% to VS Code's 74%. Obviously there are a lot of people using multiple JetBrains tools and that bloats that number, but the huge difference demonstrates how flawed SO's numbers are for gauging market share.
Also, I suspect that most people who mark a JetBrains IDE also mark a secondary editor that's lighter weight, but it's hard to tell how that all breaks down with the way they present the data. I spend about 90% of my work day in WebStorm and occasionally move over to VSCode for loading a large directory that I don't want to index. When I filled out the survey, due to they way they worded it, I marked both tools.
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lolinder 11 days ago | parent | context | on: GitHub code search is generally available
Those numbers are a bit misleading because they split up the JetBrains products, making JetBrains look like a smaller market than it actually is. If you add up all their tools, they hit 94% to VS Code's 74%. Obviously there are a lot of people using multiple JetBrains tools and that bloats that number, but the huge difference demonstrates how flawed SO's numbers are for gauging market share.
Also, I suspect that most people who mark a JetBrains IDE also mark a secondary editor that's lighter weight, but it's hard to tell how that all breaks down with the way they present the data. I spend about 90% of my work day in WebStorm and occasionally move over to VSCode for loading a large directory that I don't want to index. When I filled out the survey, due to they way they worded it, I marked both tools.
If you haven't already, would you mind reading about HN's approach to comments and site guidelines?
> VS Code is relatively efficient compared to some other products on the market such as the JetBrains IDEs.
That's not really a fair comparison I think. JetBrains IDEs do a lot more than VS Code. You'd have to load it up with plugins to make something resembling a fair comparison, and in that case I'd be very interested in how efficient VS Code still is.
> Surprised to hear people say that it could be a step up from VSCode.
VS Code is very* lightweight. Both in speed and in features. Comparing it with IntelliJ makes it seem very basic. Now, for some people that’s okay, but JetBrains IDEs are full-blown IDEs.
*: Compared to something like JetBrains tools, or literally any other electron software.
> Take the Jetbrains IDEs. I don't mean to offend any VSC fans out there but the Jetbrains IDEs are simply better and more mature in every single way.
- Worse performance
- Worse plugin ecosystem
- No LSP support
Also, their stance on supporting other ecosystems. While I completely understand their standpoint as a business, I prefer VSCode team's approach to this.
This sounds like a troll. I would expect that the guys at Jetbrains get screamed at quite often for their IDE's memory and CPU consumption (they even have a "low power" mode, which is quite telling). But on the other hand, users (I am in that group) of Jetbrains IDEs are there for the sheer awesomeness of their inspections and refactoring abilities. UI perfs notwithstanding, they have the best tools out there.
So you comparing their product to Vim shows how trollish (or really badly constructed) your argument is. You can't compare the two of them seriously, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Jetbrains team simply glanced at your email and classified it as "troll" or "don't bother with extremists".
> How is the performance on jetbrain IDE. I love webstorm & intellij but they are Soo slow compared to vscode for me.
It's pretty configurable. In my experience, it's pretty quick. It's not text editor or VS Code quick but the only thing that ever trips me up is the occasional re-indexing. Well worth it for how well it does everything else.
> but the Jetbrains IDEs are simply better and more mature in every single way
That's just not true.
I have access to the full Jetbrains suite for free, yet I still opt to use Neovim or VS Code/Codium for most languages.
Jetbrains IDEs are often brilliant tools, but are objectively worse on several metrics:
* slow startup times
* slow initial operations until the JIT is warmed up
* even once warm, you always eventually do something that lags or blocks the UI, maybe barely enough to consciously notice, maybe for several seconds; and it really affects user experience if you care about latency - it drives me crazy each time
* plugins: VS Code has a wide range of great plugins, many more than the Jetbrains ecosystem and especially when it comes to more niche languages or functionality, Vim/emacs but also VS Code are much more extensible in general
* keyboard warriors: the Vim plugin is fine, and you can configure the Jetbrains IDEs to do almost anything with the keyboard, but you need way more arcane knowledge in the form of memorized context-specific bindings, and you always eventually forget something and need to switch back to the mouse. Vim and emacs are just much better there. VS Code is actually also better, because the interactions are significantly more customizable.
* Wayland / tiling WM / input lag: Jetbrains products really suck on tiling window managers like i3 / sway because they use native windows for dialogs. They also don't support Wayland natively, so they run through X server emulation which hurts input lag and brings plenty of bugs like weird dialog behaviour. In general the input lag is quite bad on Linux, it seems to be much better optimized on Mac OS
There are plenty of valid reasons why you wouldn't want to use their IDEs, even if they provide more integration and superior refactoring.
> Don't forget about VSCode! It's very quickly becoming one of the best free editors out there
I don't know if people realize just how much market share VS Code has grabbed. It went from 7% to 50% in five years, according some some surveys [1]. Microsoft is quietly dominating this part of the stack. [2]
We’re not talking about visual studio. We’re talking about vscode.
You wanted to know why someone would use it over vscode: the answer is that vscode has poor support for some languages.
Whether you personally prefer the vscode tooling in say rust, to the debugger in clion is your personal choice; but you are misrepresenting the situation if you say the latter, with different/more features, is of no value to anyone.
> I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over.
Well, if you caveat your opinion with the assumption that the product will be worse than their other existing products, poorly executed and poorly supported, that’s a fair reason to think it won’t be any good.
…and to be fair, jetbrains have struggled with their various online service offerings.
…but, if you assume it’s a failure don’t ask why you might think it would be useful.
You’ve already decided that without trying it. What can I say? You’re right. If it’s shit, there no reason you would use it over vscode.
Maybe it will be; I personally, don’t think it’s clear at this point that’s the case, yet.
> Reminder: VSCode, Visual Studio, IntelliJ, and Notepad++ all individually have a higher usage share among professional programmers
This is an artifact of the structure of the question. They're not asking what you use the most, they're asking what you use at all. Check all that apply.
So then you check Notepad++ even if you're a Linux developer who primarily uses vim or emacs but have Notepad++ on your rarely used Windows VM. You check Visual Studio or VS code if you had to contribute to an existing project which is tied to its build system, even if you avoid it whenever possible.
A quarter of all developers use vim. That's not a small number and it's not for no reason.
> Every sane developer uses either Jetbrains' product for JS, Python or Rust, or they use VS Code, which, after installing all plugins to reach the same productivity as with Jetbrains, becomes an IDE as well.
You seem to vastly overestimate the usage of IDEs with scripting languages. In my experience, the vast majority of developers working with scripting languages such as JavaScript, Python or Rust, still use plain text editors such as Vim or Sublime Text. They find these editors to be more convenient and faster than IDEs.
Even people who are on VS Code seem to be using only the built-in language support for scripting.
Important caveat here. My only exposure to JetBrains had been through Intellij which was thoroughly unpleasant around 2012-2013. That impression has left me forever sour towards them. Surprised to hear people say that it could be a step up from VSCode.
It looks like "Fleet" is their VSCode competitor? I'm not sure if the homepage does a good job at communicating how this improves over of VSCode. First of all VSCode has an enormous ecosystem of tools which seems hard to replicate. In terms of advertised features for Fleet, it seems like the one most highlighted on the page is multiplayer, which would possibly enable others watching me code live? Sounds nerve-wracking. Although I could imagine some helpful scenarios when pair-programming or something.
Other items that are advertised don't really encourage me to want to make the leap, especially as something I have to pay for. It sounds like they could host your code, or something like that, which could be nice. An annoying part of my workflow is that I work on the same codebase between multiple machines and every time I hop between machines I have to commit the changes to a private repository that is separate from my team's repository. It seems like it would be somewhat straight-foward to have the same code shared between all machines.
Other than that I would be interested to hear on how any Jetbrains products would improve productivity.
> I wish I could understand the value add of yet another IDE.
I was in the same boat as you, when Atom and VS Code was gaining a lot of popularity. For the life of me, I couldn't understand why GitHub and Microsoft was throwing SO MUCH money at their FREE editor. If you look at the contributors for both Atom and VS Code:
And search for @microsoft.com (use ctrl+f, if you are in windows and search for @microsoft.com), you can see that there are 27 matches. And if you search for @github.com, you can see that there are 41 matches.
This is a lot of expensive developer time for a free editor, but this appears to be the current strategy to gain developer mine share. For me personally, I'm completely happy with just using Vim, but I think my way of thinking is no longer the norm.
What GitLab is doing makes sense, and I think it's a requirement, to ensure they don't find themselves with their pants down. I would have to imagine, Microsoft and GitHub, has enough data to back such a huge commitment and it only makes sense that GitLab follows suit. I also think it's kind of interesting how GitLab is approaching this.
By integrating it into their Git hosting solution (GitLab), they are able to provide a unique workflow for developers, that Microsoft and GitHub, currently cannot. Worst case scenario for GitLab, is they detach the IDE from GitLab. Best case scenario, is they create a competitive edge, by integrating the IDE so tightly with GitLab.
> For another example, Sublime Text (a for profit text editor written by a small group of developers) is massively less popular than VS Code, which is the bloated work of a small army.
Were you around in the Sublime 1/2 days? It used to be massively more popular than the alternatives, including Code, Brackets, Atom, etc. They fell behind because they cost 70 (then 80, now 100) USD and weren't as versatile or quickly iterative.
> Take the Jetbrains IDEs. I don't mean to offend any VSC fans out there but the Jetbrains IDEs are simply better and more mature in every single way. For individual use, most of them are <$100/year.
After a particularly bad tooling week (js supply chain problems, plugin problems and more than the usual amount of DB changes) Our dev team made the unanimous call to move require all developers to use Jetbrains IDEs instead of the mix of VSCode, Emacs and whatever else... Our codebase is Python, Go and Javascript, and data is stored in Postgres, so we use Goland, PyCharm, WebStorm and Datagrip regularly. We also started using the awesome Micro editor when we need something that can be installed on a remote because it's key bindings are identical to JetBrains...
A few thoughts:
1. We all picked up 2-3 hours per week of time we were spending pounding plugins on Emacs and VSCode into shape. There was a lot more fiddling going on than we thought.
2. The debugger in JetBrains IDEs is top notch. Debuggers are underrated, and bad debuggers make using print and over-logging seem like the best option.
3. When we want to do something new, (containers, notebooks, etc...) it is almost always supported, and there are not 100 incomplete plugins to sort out (both Emacs and VSCode have this issue).
4. We're doing things the same way, which sometimes really pays off. For example, instead of a mix of PostMan, python scripts, restclient, and bashified curl for making api requests, we just use the client in the IDE... which means we can share them.
5. Datagrip and the database tools in the IDEs are incredibly useful.
Ok, so the payoff: By the end of the second week, we were over the learning curve, and the payoff came in the third week: a total of 16 hours of developer time not spent on twiddling with Emacs, vim, Sublime and VSCode. That time savings paid for the subscription for the year.
> If you feel a tool as as much downsides than upsides in your workflow, you don't use it, whatever its price is.
? that was in my answer (with the typo, on the “as as” instead of “has as”, my bad)
You might be confounding mine with another comment. I recognize the talent and expertise of JetBrain’s staff, but don’t like their products in general, and use VSCode as a primary editor, and (paid) Textmate for the rest.
To your general point, looking at project like Bitwarden, with their initial kickstarter and their current revenue, I don’t feel like people are restraining from paying for useful software, even when it has a generous free tier.
> And VSCode has the best TS plugins and the latest cool stuff.
I don't know why or how, but JetBrains IDEs (WebStorm, IntelliJ, etc.) have much better TypeScript support than VS Code. I've used them both on the same project, and it's painful to use VS Code.
The main advantage of the JetBrains IDEs is that their built-in hinting/linting and code sense are much better. VS Code will fail to warn me about things that JetBrains does by default.
(I say this as someone heavily using eslint, by the way.)
Those numbers are a bit misleading because they split up the JetBrains products, making JetBrains look like a smaller market than it actually is. If you add up all their tools, they hit 94% to VS Code's 74%. Obviously there are a lot of people using multiple JetBrains tools and that bloats that number, but the huge difference demonstrates how flawed SO's numbers are for gauging market share. Also, I suspect that most people who mark a JetBrains IDE also mark a secondary editor that's lighter weight, but it's hard to tell how that all breaks down with the way they present the data. I spend about 90% of my work day in WebStorm and occasionally move over to VSCode for loading a large directory that I don't want to index. When I filled out the survey, due to they way they worded it, I marked both tools.
If you haven't already, would you mind reading about HN's approach to comments and site guidelines?
Add Comment lolinder 11 days ago | parent | context | on: GitHub code search is generally available
Those numbers are a bit misleading because they split up the JetBrains products, making JetBrains look like a smaller market than it actually is. If you add up all their tools, they hit 94% to VS Code's 74%. Obviously there are a lot of people using multiple JetBrains tools and that bloats that number, but the huge difference demonstrates how flawed SO's numbers are for gauging market share. Also, I suspect that most people who mark a JetBrains IDE also mark a secondary editor that's lighter weight, but it's hard to tell how that all breaks down with the way they present the data. I spend about 90% of my work day in WebStorm and occasionally move over to VSCode for loading a large directory that I don't want to index. When I filled out the survey, due to they way they worded it, I marked both tools.
If you haven't already, would you mind reading about HN's approach to comments and site guidelines?
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