Sounds like you agree with me. Smart phones are poor computers but they sell well because they're designed to be easy to use devices for media consumption and data collection. I've written programs on a cell phone (perhaps that's just a much less popular type of slot machine) but I wouldn't recommend it, or expect a kid to develop a love of coding by handing them a cell phone. A PC on the other hand could easily spark that interest in them.
I think kids naturally want to fiddle with things and learn something new. Maybe most grow out it eventually, but it's innate to them. We can't expect kids to know or care about the massive amounts of data collection in smart phones or the sophisticated types of manipulation they'll be subjected to on social media, but as adults we should know better and be very careful about giving kids access to either. Giving a kid an old computer or laptop instead of a cell phone seems like a much better option. Having one set up and available to them in a shared space like an office or living room makes it easy to keep an eye on them while they explore and monitor their usage.
I've never seen an iPhone that didn't have social media apps on it, but I've never seen one at factory defaults either, so I'll have to accept that you're right about pre-loaded garbage being an android specific problem.
I'm honestly amazed that people seriously compare an 8bit machine with no network to a smartphone with Internet and social media.
The Internet, amazing as it is, it's also the home to the worst possible content imaginable and believe it, kids always find a way to neutralize parental controls and the like.
Also, I don't understand this notion that "tech" (in the most vague definition possible) actually brings any future advantage.
It's like teaching kids Excel or Python and hope they will win a Fields medal.
If parents teach them critical thinking, reading books and love math and logic, they'll pick up any problem, language or "tech" easily when they're older and run circles around other kids that "know programming".
>I think the another issue with most of these "for kids" environments is that they have low ceilings of mastery
A modern GUI OS for adults has a very low ceiling of mastery. I don't know why we need to make simpler designs. When my kid was literally fourteen or fifteen months he could pick up a phone or tablet, swipe to the youtube app, press it, and then press the thumbnails from a recently viewed video and watch videos (usually Peppa Pig).
Kids don't need dumbed down displays. We already have dumbed down displays for adults. This reminds me of why the OLPC failed so badly. Even ignoring the cheap netbook competition, the interface was too 'top down' academic crap about 'how kids think' and involved a lot of shoddy assumptions on how to teach kids how to use a computer. A netbook with XP was perfectly usable by even the very young.
I was 6 or so I could use my parent's TRS-80 and was writing fun little BASIC programs with it. I think we need to give kids more credit here. They're much smarter than we think and its adult hubris to pretend they're so unintelligent and unable to figure things out on their own. Perhaps we shouldn't shy away from overly-challenging kids. The recent trends of 'soft' and 'helicopter' parenting cannot be good for the long run. I plan to be somewhat tough with my son because I don't want him to grow up into some of the people I work with who have near zero self-learning and critical thinking skills and have a 'give me fish' mentality and will actively fight against a 'teach me to fish' mentality.
I think his point was that this would be a very bad end result. If there are no desktops or laptops in a household it becomes very hard for a kid to be immersed in development from a young age as tablets and phones are almost exclusively meant for consumption.
>buying for their young child a so-called "mini-laptop"
They're great devices. They can reach kids for education and let them learn in a format that will be useful to them going forward. I wouldn't buy a young child a full-fledged laptop, it'd be a waste of money and that's too much freedom to afford a kid if you don't know how to lock it down for malware or scams.
"I saw in the supermarket the other day a group of parents buying for their young child a so called "army man" and I realized how difficult it is for a 5 year old to join the military."
That’s hyperbole. The computers you were lucky to grow up with weren’t entry points to multi billion dollar industries with the sole intent of pinning a child to a screen and sell them stuff. Smartphones introduce children to addictive behaviour way too early in their life, and that’s a completely different situation than tinker devices of yore.
Spot on. Not to imply computers are for programming only. I am perplexed at how to best make a computer/laptop useful to a kid. The issue I see are: too many options, too many passive activities, or too complex creative applications.
I just rolled my eyes when I saw the title here and I rolled my eyes harder when I read what Sarah had to say. Your points are exactly what my thoughts are. I remember my grandmother use to tell my mother to tell me to stop using the computer so much and go outside and play. Like you said I had a great social life but any time I was on the computer learning to code it was apparently bad for me. My parents didn't really understand the opportunities something like a computer had in the future just like Sarah over here doesn't understand smart phones. All Sarah sees is the negatives just like my parents so the negatives of using a computer.
Yes there is a risk of having to have that unpleasant convo with your kids about whats right and wrong and being responsible with your phone..but isn't that what parents are suppose to do? Teach your kids what's right and wrong instead of just denying them of things you don't understand?
It's important for everyone, but especially kids, to use computers in a way that lends itself to creativity rather than consumption. There are ways to be creative with a phone, but the reality is that they have been engineered specifically to cater to consumption.
I already own my last smartphone. I wouldn't let my kids have one either. I would encourage them to use computers in creative ways though.
> And screen provide tiny amount and much much less complex information than the real world no matter how complicated software you run.
That may be true in general, but I think what matters is that a screen provides much larger, richer and more complex information and experience than just about any other individual object in the physical world. Nothing in nature (with the possible exception of faces) comes within an order of magnitude to the "experience density" of a smartphone running even relatively trivial software like a picture gallery or a scrollable list of songs. I wouldn't discount the impact of this on a brain of a 1-3 y.o. It's a superstimulus.
> A young child (0 to ~3 years) does not understand electronics.
On the other hand, my 2 year old niece can easily take an iPad, unlock it, swipe through the pages and folders, find YouTube, and watch videos. And in an ever-increasing electronics-driven world, I don't think it's bad to learn some of those skills at that age. (Though her screentime is limited and she also plays with wooden toys etc.)
Ofcourse explaining a battery or 'the internet' would be too complex at that age, but apparently the 'input output response from a battery device can be easily guessed'.
This is sad. You have relegated your child's cognitive development to a cheap electronic device. He's supposed to be communicating with you and learning how to communicate with people, not crappy electronics designed to gather your info to sell you stuff.
> "Children don't tend to get the same sort of benefit from full "hard" keyboards that adults do"
How do you expect them to learn to, if you don't give them devices with keyboards? Sure, they could wait until that typing class in middle-school, but wouldn't it be better to have them pick it up themselves, much earlier?
Its not about making big lumps of evil. Its about having a productive attitude about technology.
My kids do have access to technology - they have laptops, and a small collection of video games. But they're not allowed to just zone out for hours on end, consuming pixels.
I gave them laptops so they'd learn what real computers are. And, they have! The (10 and 7 year old) kids are coding!
But there is a huge difference between this level of engagement, and that of the decadent-consumer-of-mobile-content that we've produced in the last 5 years. There's a huge difference between the endless hours I spent, typing in programs from magazines on my 8-bit systems in the 80's, and just downloading the latest pixel-blah on the No-friend-o.
Kids should have technology - but they should be given the opportunity to become masters of it, not slaves. That's the decision that has to be made, in my opinion, by the modern parent. Tech has evolved to enslave us - it also can serve. Kids who know how to make technology serve them and not the other way around, are the only hope for the future ..
> > don't force anything on him. ... Just let him use a computer in a completely natural way.
> This is absolutely true.
I disagree, sort of. I have a 5 yo and an 8 yo. If you let kids use a computer without guidance, they will learn how to use a computer from their friends at school. And what they learn is to fire up a browser (chrome if you've got it, otherwise Firefox) type "<some word> games" into Google and play thousands of really mind-numbing flash games. Go ahead. Try it.
Sorry, I'm not sure if that came off as an insult("the kid won't use that computer"), but just that the kid will probably use the computer to the extent that it is useful or interesting to her, and have an easier time putting it aside, which is different from traditional computing these days where everything is designed to suck you in regardless of what your interests are.
I was lucky to get a laptop before a smartphone, which probably influenced my opinions greatly. But I'm thinking that for most kids now, they get a smartphone long before a personal computer. Perhaps this is part of it.
Maybe parents should supply their children with a bluetooth keyboard from the get go and make a real effort to teach kid how much faster they can type on it?
I say this while I'm typing on my phone, so who knows ;)
Sounds like you agree with me. Smart phones are poor computers but they sell well because they're designed to be easy to use devices for media consumption and data collection. I've written programs on a cell phone (perhaps that's just a much less popular type of slot machine) but I wouldn't recommend it, or expect a kid to develop a love of coding by handing them a cell phone. A PC on the other hand could easily spark that interest in them.
I think kids naturally want to fiddle with things and learn something new. Maybe most grow out it eventually, but it's innate to them. We can't expect kids to know or care about the massive amounts of data collection in smart phones or the sophisticated types of manipulation they'll be subjected to on social media, but as adults we should know better and be very careful about giving kids access to either. Giving a kid an old computer or laptop instead of a cell phone seems like a much better option. Having one set up and available to them in a shared space like an office or living room makes it easy to keep an eye on them while they explore and monitor their usage.
I've never seen an iPhone that didn't have social media apps on it, but I've never seen one at factory defaults either, so I'll have to accept that you're right about pre-loaded garbage being an android specific problem.
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