>That’s not what I am saying, actually. I think tracking should be illegal. But I don’t live in a fantasy world. My point was that in our real world, where everything already tracks me, who cares?
I do. I'm not a secretive person (in fact, should we meet down the pub, I'll probably tell you way more about me than you want to know), but I am a private person. That is to say that I don't hide who I am or what I do/say/think, but I want it to be my choice as to whom I share such information.
Or, to be more concise: My business is my business, not anyone else's.
Pervasive tracking is incredibly annoying. And while I do some things to protect my privacy (custom android roms, ad/tracker blockers, both local and network-based, disable GPS/location services on my phone, aggressively manage cookies and a raft of other things I either do or don't do to minimize leakage of my life), I have to put up with some tracking (my cellular provider needs to track my phone or they can't connect calls, deliver data, etc.) because I'm not interested in squatting in a lean-to out in the woods somewhere.
But that doesn't mean I have to like it or, more to your point, not care about it.
> Some people in the privacy community seem to think advertising and tracking in any form should not exist and will always make a stink about whatever incarnation they take.
I don't think I'm in the "privacy community". It's my opinion that advertising will always exist, but tracking is complete horseshit and should be abolished ASAP. I don't think this is a very unpopular opinion either. There seems to be an attempt to Stockholm us all into thinking tracking is a necessary evil we must accept.
> But the real problem is that general population has zero to no issue with it.
It’s really tough to make this case. You can ask someone whether they’re worried about tracking and likely get a “no,” but if you put a “allow app to track” button they’ll also click “no,” and if you ask how they feel about a concrete specific data collection, they’ll often say they don’t like it.
> until we drop the whole 'tracking is bad we should just shut it all down', and start to think of a fair and reasonable way for users to say 'I am ok with company B knowing that I have a relationship with company A' then these increasingly nerfarious tracking efforts will happen.
Given how companies have completely and utterly ignored the idea of consent banners, I am deeply disinclined to believe that most companies would ever actually be satisfied with a user controlled choice in the matter. Where we actually are is that companies will relentlessly attempt to stalk everyone all the time no matter what, and in face of that the only sane conclusion is that in practice tracking is bad and we should shut it all down.
> You track me to sell my data and to profit from the ads. I gain nothing
Sure you do; you get to use Gmail and Facebook for free because they generate enough money from ads not to have to charge.
I can understand that there people like yourself that don't want to be tracked, that's cool, but if the majority of people don't care, should the system at least be opt-out? Or left up to the user to use the do-not-track features of browsers?
I'm not saying tracking must be forced on everyone, but this piece of legislation seems like a massive hammer to hit a very tiny nail.
> I can't help but wonder...how many real-world businesses could benefit from the same type of invasive tracking that online businesses seem to think they have a right to subject us with?
> For some reason, though, we don't allow that sort of privacy violation in our actual lives.
> However, most real-world businesses manage to do quite well even with our rude dismissals of their desire to track us.
Are you sure you're not being tracked? There are technologies like Prism[1] that allow stores to track people, where they go, how long they stay there, etc. On the lower-tech side, point cards[2] are also used to track purchasing habits.
> In a world where companies feel the need to track every part of my life with or without my permission. This is something I can't escape, as every time I interact with someone that does use one of these platforms than they are able to collect data on me.
I find this attitude honestly kind of confusing. I mean, you know that the shops you go to know what products you're buying from them, right? Presumably those shops look at that data in aggregate when thinking about which products to stock. How is this any different? If you're transacting with someone, it's not possible to hide that transaction from them.
Perhaps to track my grandma, who lives alone. Or on festivals or while skiing with friends. Not in everyday life.
> Would you pay for it?
Yes, but I would prefer a solution where I host a server myself to be honest. I would more gladly pay for a license here instead of a service with monthly costs. In reality I have some dev friends and if it was a feature we really wanted, we might hack something ugly together ourselves. But for commercial use I would do pay for it.
> Would you or your company sponsor it?
No. I am in a position where I could influence such decisions in the company I work for, but I think it would just lead to employee surveillance, which I don't support. My boss might, but I would recommend to refrain from doing so and would gather arguments against it.
I know it is common in logistics, but that shouldn't mean everyone has to accept such tracking. Poor souls...
> People are certainly entitled to not be tracked, but not to indulge in services for free without payment, tracking or ads.
These services are not just an indulgence for many people. I've had jobs that require me to access things on Discord or Facebook. Many businesses require using Facebook or WhatsApp for customer service. I've needed support for various issues that only existed on reddit or Twitter. These are just a few examples.
Sure, one could opt to not participate in society or to go without essentials. But you shouldn't have to live such an extreme aescetic monk lifestyle just to avoid being tracked and profiled and having your profile sold to people who wish to manipulate your behavior.
>> I have a right to track how people use my site.
But you don't have a right to say what runs on my computer, or make it tell you what I'm doing. This is where our perceived rights collide.
>> once you've made that choice you are within my domain, under my roof, living by my rules.
No, my computer, my browser, my roof, my rules.
>> People get way too offended by analytics tracking when it's there for their benefit.
No, people get offended when you try to turn their computer into a device that spies on them. And we get more offended that this sort of stuff happens without most people even being aware its going on. They may or may not object to it, but right now they don't even know.
And it's so lovely of you to have made the decision for me that it's to my benefit, so I don't have to worry about pesky things like privacy concerns, or having control over my own computing.
>> Do Not Track is snake oil for the conscientious objector.
This is about the only thing we agree on. It's pointless and it was never going to achieve anything.
>I'm trying to appeal to the people who build the systems and brainstorm ways to do that, not really rally the end-users to this particular cause.
The people that "build the systems" are paid for by those corporations who make money by tracking you. Who exactly do you think is going to:
A. Fund this new decentralized non-tracking utopia.
B. Convince users already embedded in existing systems to switch to something less functional in order to not be tracked?
EVERY project that's tried what you're describing has failed miserably because end-users just don't care. Can you cite even ONE example of a competing system that has focused on privacy that has garnered what can be considered even a modicum of success against an already entrenched player?
> I can't help but wonder...how many real-world businesses could benefit from the same type of invasive tracking that online businesses seem to think they have a right to subject us with?
Most companies that collect data use it to make money. That's not true ONLY on the web.
> For some reason, though, we don't allow that sort of privacy violation in our actual lives.
Really? Do you have any grocery store loyalty cards? Do you use a credit card? That data is shared and sold. Do you do any activities that show up on your credit report, like pay bills to a utility? That data is shared and sold. That's how the credit rating agency got it. Do you have a set-top box? It's probably selling data on what shows you watch. Do you have a cell phone? Location data.
If you actually restricted yourself to purchases which don't involve anybody who shares your data, you'd be living in a cave.
On what grounds do you make this sweeping absolute statement? I'm personally willing to accept lots of tracking by Google, Facebook, etc. in exchange for free or cheaper services.
> In what world does a disagreement over the right level of telemetry justify this kind of behavior?
In a world where companies think little of collecting and selling our personal data to make a profit? In a world where companies feel the need to track every part of my life with or without my permission. This is something I can't escape, as every time I interact with someone that does use one of these platforms than they are able to collect data on me.
We both know that there are companies out there that are trying their best to not exploit their users, and sadly these companies are often held to much higher standards. When a company that we trust, and trust enough to recommend to others who value their privacy, it does hurt when a company goes in the opposite direction with your privacy even when they have noble intentions at heart.
It's also completely telling when their engineers are standing up for their users and others at the company are trying to find any excuse to collect certain information for reasons.
Now, I'm never for personal attacks on someone no matter what, but I find it hard to call out people for using a widely used and available emoji. I do agree it's very much on the line and others might take the other opinion in this case.
> you're okay with someone following you 24/7/365 every moment that you step outside your house?
One problem with the current state of the privacy debate is this sort of hyperbole.
No, I’m not. I delineate between information people intentionally cast publicly—even if they don’t understand the consequences of doing so—and information that occurs in public. My location, tracked by my phone and router to various apps’ servers, occurs in public. My tweets, on the other hand, are intentionally broadcast. There is a lot of grey area between these poles, but intent broadly inspires my thinking.
When I explain modern tracking practices to normal, non-technical people that have never heard of it before, on e of the most common responses is, "Why aren't they in jail?"
A lot of people feel unauthorized tracking should be a criminal offense. They currently feel powerless to do anything about it. In the long term, breeding resentment will eventually result in people finding a way to strike back. This is how bad regulation happens.
> improve reddit's content
Reddit can ask first. Getting informed consent is not hard (opt-in). Are basic manners and politeness that hard of a concept?
> already blocked said tracking
That requires specific technical knowledge. Privacy should not be limited to a technical priesthood.
> ornery
Maybe you should stop labeling people that would like to preserve privacy as "ornery".
I do. I'm not a secretive person (in fact, should we meet down the pub, I'll probably tell you way more about me than you want to know), but I am a private person. That is to say that I don't hide who I am or what I do/say/think, but I want it to be my choice as to whom I share such information.
Or, to be more concise: My business is my business, not anyone else's.
Pervasive tracking is incredibly annoying. And while I do some things to protect my privacy (custom android roms, ad/tracker blockers, both local and network-based, disable GPS/location services on my phone, aggressively manage cookies and a raft of other things I either do or don't do to minimize leakage of my life), I have to put up with some tracking (my cellular provider needs to track my phone or they can't connect calls, deliver data, etc.) because I'm not interested in squatting in a lean-to out in the woods somewhere.
But that doesn't mean I have to like it or, more to your point, not care about it.
Edit: Clarified prose.
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