No, I just meant to say sourdough fermentation is slower than a quick rise enabled by commercial yeast. Though I do ferment rye breads longer than wheat, and with a rye bread, you would also usually sour more of the bread, like up to 50% of total flour amount.
That said, I think they cultivate newer rye varieties to be less rich with enzymes. I presume that is to meet the requirements of industrial baking.
You can use commercial yeast, but it will never be as light as with sourdough fermentation, but very dense and “soggy”.
There are more factors at play here but the tldr is that, other than wheat, rye flour contains a very high level of amylase, an enzyme that breaks starches into sugars. Amylase prevents bread from rising, and rye contains so much of it that it stays active even with the high temperatures of baking. Add that to the fact that rye has very little gluten to hold up the structure of the bread…
That‘s where sourdough comes into play. The acids produced during a slow fermentation slow down the reaction of amylase, giving you a lighter bread. For a good rye bread, I ferment for over 24h in three steps.
> most industrial bakeries only allow bread to rise for a matter of minutes—not nearly long enough to let the yeast and bacteria digest all the gluten in the flour, let alone the extra dose in the additives
Nor will they ever. Fermentation is the digestion of carbohydrates. Gliadin and glutenin are proteins.
ETA: That's not to say that autolyse and a slow rise won't improve flavor and texture, which they certainly do.
"With bread risen with instant dry yeast, it will definitely resemble visual qualities of bread, but the texture and taste will not be comparable to bread that uses wild yeast."
This is so wrong it drives me insane. The key thing is the length (and thus slowness) of the rise of the dough, not whether you use wild or instant yeast. Sourdough raised on a hot countertop for thirty minutes will not be nearly as good as a dough with a reduced amount of instant yeast raised at a cool temperature for three hours. The idea that all non-sourdough has poor flavor and texture is pure opinion, and silly at that. Any serious bread baker would tell you that that there are many many wonderful breads made with instant yeast--take the French baguette for example.
Yes, I know. But my point was that sourdough, at least the one I keep, are living things and are not consistently the same. Mine depends on the time I kept it in the fridge, the temperature it’s kept outside (which depends on the weather), on how active the last generation was and many other factors I have more or less under control. And that manifests in taste difference, raising power etc.
What I mean is bread with long rising time, ideally 20-24 hours. The improvement in flavour and structure is well worth it.
I rarely use more than ~20g of sourdough or 4-5g of yeast for a full-sized loaf with ~1kg flour. Sometimes a tiny (~0.1g) bit of yeast to help out the sourdough if the current batch is slightly lazy.
I'm not sure if we agree or not. I'm not at all after the classic sourdough taste, and am not really interested in keeping a friend. I buy bulk dried yeast and always use yesterdays dough as a starter, do a slow ferment in the fridge, or keep a fresh sponge fermenting for a day before I actually make bread. lots of fermentation really does develop a richer flavor.
if I do want to grow a friend you suggest I turn my culture over often to stop it getting too funky, and use proofing chamber to get rapid yeast development when actually baking?
Lord, I'm not really qualified; I've only been baking for a few weeks. My justification for writing this was more that I thought I could put it in a style that a new audience would be receptive to, rather than any perceived expertise on my own part.
That said, received wisdom is that loooong, slow ferments give more flavourful loaves. That's usually achieved with tiny amounts of yeast and time in the fridge. But please, go ask the experts over on /r/breadit, you'll get a much more reliable answer there.
The entire point of bread is turning wheat seeds into a digestible food. Part of that is milling, part is baking, and a big part is the fermenting and the long natural yeast rise.
Mass produced bread never does this long natural yeast rise. Cheap versions use all kinds of chemicals to get the texture right, even the high quality variants use rapid rising yeast because natural yeast is way too slow. Only in a local bakery or at home will you find bread that is made in the healthiest way possible. The natural yeast fermented slow rise results in a much healthier product, bread that even gluten-sensitive people have no issue eating (and it tastes better)
As an avid sourdough enthusiast, I can assure you that this is wrong :)
Sourdough is a culture that's (mostly) a stable colony of wild yeast and lactic acid bacteria. Generally speaking, the yeast provides the rising power, and the lactic acid bacteria provide lactic acid giving the dough a sour (acidic) flavour.
Naturally fermented breads that stay away from commercial yeasts (ie oldfashioned sourdough bread), work out for many people who otherwise struggle with normal commercial bread.
Do you make Sourdough? If yes, I've had success rising it in the fridge - takes longer (1.5-2 days) but conditions in their tend to be fairly constant. As a bonus, you get a ton of oven rise.
>Sourdoughs International is a family business dedicated to the resurgence of authentic sourdoughs. Authentic? Commercial yeast produces something that looks like sourdough but is completely bland and tasteless. Absolutely nothing tastes or smells anything like authentic sourdough. When you bake it with wild yeast and lactobacilli, it will taste and smell like sourdough should. There is no other way.
>The Industrial Revolution created fast rising yeasts that almost eliminated sourdough and did eliminate the lactic acid bacteria. As a result breads baked with commercial yeast have never equaled the flavor, texture and aroma of man’s first leavened bread. And never will!
Here's an interesting take I heard recently- in addition to the move to white flour, some also suspect the move away from slow, natural leavening (sourdough) to fast, industrial leavening (instant yeast) has contributed to making bread less healthy. In support of that claim, notice the low glycemic index of sourdough bread.
(Though you shouldn't use that kind of yeast for breadmaking, if you want it to taste good.. At least get some fresh yeast. (Which not quite coincidentally is also the 'normal' kind of yeast in eg Germany.) Better yet, make a rye sourdough starter.)
The problem is that rye doesn't have enough gluten. So you need to get the structure of your bread from the starches, and they only do the Right Thing when it's sour enough. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36504484 for a slightly more in-depth description.
> They’re in everything wheat except sourdough bread.
Why is that? The only difference between sourdough bread and non-sourdough bread is yeast vs starter (and some people still use yeast in addition to their starter).
That said, I think they cultivate newer rye varieties to be less rich with enzymes. I presume that is to meet the requirements of industrial baking.
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