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In reality, punishment is not the same as suffering. People can suffer without an external punishment.


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Don’t compare suffering. Everyone is entitled to suffer.

It's not suffering in some abstract sense, it's accountability - in no small part for causing suffering and loss to others.

There is no such case. That's just silly. Suffering isn't even something that should necessarily be avoided.

Not to be flippant but the larger suffering of others does not negate or even justify suffering.

Suffering-based punishments disproportionately punish the chronically unhappy, who have less non-suffering.

Contrary to popular opinion, the amount of suffering that exists in the world does not intrinsically matter.

The only way for there to not be suffering is for us to not have free will.

Existence of greater suffering does not prove someone is not suffering. No child (or adult) should have to fear being stabbed walking home.

That's probably what I meant. Or "the worst suffering", regardless of whether it is punishment.

It's not arbitrary because suffering is universal and unwanted by those who experience it.

Suffering? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

The claim here is even stronger, and somewhat different: that suffering and reward are fundamentally different kind of things, and cannot simply undo each other, not at any exchange rate. The difference is qualitative, not quantitative. For example, if you lose your eyesight, it's such a big loss, that most likely nothing can balance it out ever. It has no "five times as good" equivalent.

You can 'program' humans that way too. Doesn't mean they aren't slaves and it doesn't mean it isn't bad.

And anyway I suspect that your use of the word suffering implies a rather narrow definition of suffering that counts only material suffering as important.


Suffering is something things do while they're alive. Just because you end something's life doesn't mean you necessarily caused suffering.

It is not that suffering is noble. It is that suffering is living.

Agreed- there's no monopoly on suffering.

If suffering doesn't matter, then neither does anything else.

Suffering is not the same as having a reward function. If the outcome is a reward, people would opt in for suffering to get rewards. Some even cheat their ways to rewards. People do hustle porn, virtue signaling, other fake sufferings. Some push to the extremes like running triathlons. But at some point, reality will wake us up. Our personal struggle is always there. It never ends. We'd be forced to make intelligent choices. Or we'd die wasting our time on useless endeavors.

There is a difference between not actively working on reducing suffering and not seeing a point in reducing suffering.
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